Jehovah’s Witness
By Reeves
Introduction
The Jehovah’s Witnesses officially known as the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society was founded by a fella Charles Taze Russell. He was born February 16, 1852, near Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.
As a young lad without theological degrees, organized a Bible study group and was ordained by his member as “pastor.” In late 1800’s Charles founded and published the magazine Zion’s Watchtower. It contains his odd interpretation of the Bible.
After Charles Taze Russell’s death came Joseph F. Rutherford become the successor of the Watchtower Community. The name “Jehovah’s Witnesses” was adopted during his rulership. Rutherford died in 1942 and was replaced by a fella Nathan Knorr.
The members of the Watchtower increased from 115,000 to 2 million members under his presidency. During 1961 the society produced their self-proclaimed English translation of the Bible entitled The New World Translation of Holy Scriptures.
The Credo’s of Jehovah’s Witnesses
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Unusual Practices
For some odd reason a Jehovah’s Witness (JW) must refuse Blood Transfusion. One must not wear a cross necklace not even just an ornament. They refuse to be active in the political arena such as refusing to vote elections, salute the flag or sing a national anthem. Christmas and birthdays are excluded too. Serving in armed forces is an absolute a no no in their practice. The Jehovah’s Witnesses are commanded to be very active to proselytizing for the movement.
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Source of Authority
There are no “articles of faith” or authoritative doctrinal statements according to their beliefs. Most of their theological views are found in their different publications, including the famous The Watchtower and Awake.
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JW’s And Its Doctrines
Trinity, is denied. According to them the doctrine was not conceived by Jesus or the early professing Christians. In the field of their theological studies, Jesus Christ deity as God incarnate is denied. Their favorite biblical passages they use to quote denying Christ’s deity are John 1:1, John 14.28 and Colossians 1:15. They often refers to these verses to read the texts out of contexts.
Jesus Christ according to Jehovah’s Witnesses was just an ordinary created being-a human just like you and me. Holy Spirit to JW’s is not part of the Godhead. JW’s believe in forgiveness of sins through faith in Christ plus total obedience to Watchtower Society. Salvation for a Jehovah’s follower is through good deeds.
Christ bodily resurrection is denied and the Second coming of Jesus distorted. Infallibility of the Scripture, Final Judgment, and eternal life in heaven are also distorted in their doctrinal beliefs. JW’s also teaches that there is no salvation outside the Watchtower Society.
A Response to Jehovah’s Witnesses
Christ Deity
JW’s denial of Christ’s deity wasn’t originated by Charles T. Russell but by a man called Arius. Arius was a fourth century heretic whose false theology and doctrine was opposed and condemned at the council of Nicea in 325. Arius or Arianism as its called for this teaching was opposed, and exposed his distortions of the Bible by Alexander the mentor of Athanasius.
Later, Athanasius wrote a skillful defence of Christ’s deity entitled On Incarnation. I’m just going to write a couple of common “proof text” to rebut JW’s false doctrine namely, Christ was just a created being.
John 1:1
The Scripture reads, ” In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” (KJV) But according to NWT corrupt rendition of the last clause of John 1:1 it says ” In the beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a God.” The reading of “…the Word [Christ] was a god” totally changed its original meaning.
The letter a is not in the original Greek text. JW’s maintains that Jesus is only a created being a lesser god. But for the sake of the argument, lets say that Jesus was just a god, this will only add up more difficulties since the Judeo-Christian doctrine is exclusively monotheistic (Is.43:10)!
To suggest that Jesus is just a lesser god is tantamount to that their are other god beside YHWH!
John 14:28
Jesus says, “the Father is greater than I” JW’s frequently uses this verse as a proof text to support their false presupposition about Jesus’ deity.
If Jehovah is greater than Jesus then Jesus cannot be god. This is just a simple misunderstanding of the text. What Jesus meant about the “greater I” was that God the Father is greater by position, but not by nature, since both are God. Jesus is lower in office, in function in position-As man.
Jesus is also equal to the Father, in essence, in nature, in character-As God. We have to remember that Jesus has two nature;God-man. Jesus wasn’t denying His deity as God.
Colossians 1:16 “All things” or “All [other] things”
If one cannot change a meaning to a text all he can do is to add a word to it so that it might appear more appealing. Yet this is exactly what the JW’s did adding a word other into the verse of Col. 1:16 in their NWT. Did the word other existed in the original Greek texts?
No. The word other is not in the Greek original text. They believe that Jesus is Micheal the Archangel a created being, therefore, they have to add other four times in to the text to justify their false doctrine. JW’s main point about Col. 1:16 is to show that God created Jesus and Jesus in the same token created other things.
Let’s read Col. 1:16 in its original rendering, “For by Him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him…”
Again, if we read Isaiah 44:24, where God says, “I am the Lord, that maketh all things, stretchet forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself.” If Jesus created others along with God then why did God say that He did the creating by Himself?
Bibliography__________
Kingdom of Cults,Water Martin; Bethany House Publisher
Reasoning From The Scriptures with Jehovah’s Witnesses, Ron Rhodes;Harvest House Publishers
A Mindful Christian 
13 March 2010 at 12:14 pm
“lets say that Jesus was just a god, this will only add up more difficulties since the Judeo-Christian doctrine is exclusively monotheistic”
No problem for Jehovah‘s Witnesses, Bible writers referred to men as gods:
For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”), yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.
–1 Corinthians 8:5-6 (New International Version)
Even Satan is identified correctly:
The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. –2 Corinthians 4:4 (New International Version)
As are the rest of the angels:
God presides in the great assembly;
he gives judgment among the “gods” –Psalm 82:1 (New International Version)
Also, most critics base their arguments on factual statements. It looks like you need to do a little more research before you represent yourself as an expert on this subject.
13 March 2010 at 6:50 pm
Bible Student,
I really appreciate and respect your comment. First of, nowhere in my article(s) did I referred myself as an expert ok 🙂 Second, I want to ask you what did the Bible meant when it refers to men, satan and angels as “gods?” Second, does the gods referred to in the Scripture speaks in the same understanding when it comes to Jesus (a mere god)?
Did these “gods” or “lords” forgave sins as Jesus obviously did? Did these “gods” or “lords” recieve worship as, again, Jesus did? Are there many gods then besides Jehovah? If it is so, isn’t your understanding contrary to the Scripture (Isaiah 43:10; 44:6,8,). In addition, how many actual gods are there in scripture? If Jesus is “a god” that was “with God” in the beginning, then is Jesus a true god or a false god?
We have to keep in mind that the apostle John was a strict Jew, a monotheist. Do you really think that John would be saying that there was another God besides Jehovah, even if it were Jesus? Third, The conventional Christianity never sees and/or understand Jesus just a mere god. The mainline orthodoxy of Christianity (and as for the Bible itself) sees Jesus Christ as GOD. Not just a god but GOD Jehovah the Creator and Sustainer of the universe.
14 March 2010 at 12:26 am
The old dictionary program on my computer is “The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, Third Edition Copyright 1992 Houghton Mifflin Company. It serves me well and says:
god n. 1. God. a. A being conceived as the perfect, omnipotent, omniscient originator and ruler of the universe, the principal object of faith and worship in monotheistic religions. b. The force, effect, or a manifestation or aspect of this being. c. Christian Science. “Infinite Mind; Spirit; Soul; Principle; Life; Truth; Love” (Mary Baker Eddy). 2. A being of supernatural powers or attributes, believed in and worshiped by a people, especially a male deity thought to control some part of nature or reality. 3. An image of a supernatural being; an idol. 4. One that is worshiped, idealized, or followed. 5. A very handsome man. 6. A powerful ruler or despot.
And the thesaurus:
1. (n.) Someone who is the object of admiration:
• idol
• hero
• heroine
• star
• idealized person
• legendary person
• popular figure
• man of the hour
• woman of the hour
• public favorite
• guiding light
The first dictionary definition (“a” part) sounds like the Most High, “Sovereign Lord” of the universe. Introducing himself to Moses at Exodus 6:3 (21st Century King James Version) he is quoted, “And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob by the name of God Almighty, but by My name Jehovah was I not known to them.”
Dictionary #2 could describe Jesus or Satan.
4, 5 & 6 could be applied to humans.
The thesaurus covers them all.
The biggest difference, probably, is between the creator and the created.
Only one can person can give life.
As to forgiving sins, Jesus taught his disciples:
For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. –Matthew 6:14, 15 (21st Century King James Version)
You might show me the scripture where “Jesus obviously forgave sins.”
The angel giving the apostle John the visions that he recorded as “The Book of Revelations” warned him: “No, don’t worship me. I am a servant of God, just like you and your brothers the prophets, as well as all who obey what is written in this book. Worship only God!” –Revelation 22:9 (New Living Translation) No mention of worshiping Jesus.
You write that Jesus was “with God” in the beginning. I just realized that my arm was with me in the beginning, as was my mother.
One though, now lives several states away, but I type with both hands.
Even the Catholics got this one right. They call Jesus “Son of God, begotten of the Father” in their creed. Like mom “begat” me.
You’ve used the term “mere god” a couple of times. There is only one God (Almighty). John’s words were inspired by Him. No mistakes! You see by the definitions that the word “god” is quite ambiguous.
Jesus warned about “mainline orthodoxy” in his sermon on the mount. He said at Matthew 7:13 & 14, “Go in through the narrow gate; because broad and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are the ones going in through it; whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are the ones finding it.” (New World Translation) Like “global warming,” consensus does not make it true.
You would have to show me the scriptures that Jesus (means “Jehovah Is Salvation”) is Jehovah (means “He Causes to Become”).
Thanks for your time. I noticed you pulled my plug for the Watchtower website. I hope you use it to further your education, whether you promote it or not.
14 March 2010 at 7:53 pm
Bible Student,
Hold your horses man! Your jumping all over the place here! I’ll be gladly to re-battle you with your objections but first thing first.
“As to forgiving sins, Jesus taught his disciples:”
I’m not sure what you meant when it comes to forgiving sin. Are you telling me that since the disciples could forgive other trespasses have an equal value as Jesus Christ’s forgiveness of sin? Please be more specific here.
“You might show me the scripture where “Jesus obviously forgave sins.””
Forgive my wording “obviously” I should have said, “Jesus do forgive sin.” Please read these passages in Luke 5:17-26;5:20;5:31-32;7:36-50
“You write that Jesus was “with God” in the beginning. I just realized that my arm was with me in the beginning, as was my mother.”
First, it is not me who wrote “Jesus was with God,” but the Scripture itself! Second, your statement is a false analogy. Was your arm or your mother with God 8no pun intended here)? Let’s take your analogy to its conclusion and it reads, “In the beginning was the arm and the arm was with God and the Arm was God! Nice try! Besides, your analogy evaporates when you read all the way to verse 14 of John 1:1!
Jesus is called “the Word”, the Logos, of God. As the Logos, He is the manifestation or expression of God to us, “the image of the invisible God” (Colossians 1:15). “The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of His being” (Hebrews 1:3). He “came from the Father.” As the Logos, Jesus “the Word was with God, and the Word [Jesus] was God.” This is the only logical and biblical conclusion of John 1:1 Now, my question is, If the Word ain’t Jesus then who was it then?
“The angel giving the apostle John the visions that he recorded as “The Book of Revelations” warned him:“No, don’t worship me. I am a servant of God, just like you and your brothers the prophets, as well as all who obey what is written in this book. Worship only God!””
This is exactly the point of the mainline orthodoxy(Jesus Christ is God), namely that nobody should be worshipped except God alone! And Jesus Christ, in biblical context, did recieve worship. Your objection is argument from silence, just because Jesus isn’t mentioned specifically here doesn’t mean Jesus isn’t God. Besides, Jesus is mentioned else where in Revelation1:8, 17-18. Also, we read in Revelation 22:12-13, 16 “Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End…. [16] “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”
Jesus is called “the Word”, the Logos, of God. As the Logos, He is the manifestation or expression of God to us, “the image of the invisible God” (Colossians 1:15). “The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of His being” (Hebrews 1:3). He “came from the Father.” As the Logos, Jesus “the Word was with God, and the Word [Jesus] was God.”
also read Isa. 41:4;44:6;48:12 in comparison to Rev. 1:17;2:8;22:13 If these passages isn’t talking about Jesus Christ then who does it refers to?
In addition, just because the name Jesus is not mentioned are we then to conclude unscriptural?
Let us now turn to your definition of “god.”
It is quite odd that most of the above definitions or terms you have shown doesn’t exactly capture the true wording of John 1:1 let us read the whole passage the Watchtower’s New World Translation: “In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.” This redition might as well fit one of your definition of “god.” The New World Translation, as you are probably aware, has added the word “a” to the verse so it says, “…and the Word was a god.” But this goes against the conventional interpretation of the Scripture. The correct translation for this verse is “In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.” This translation is more sound if not accurate! And most Bible translations (besides NWT) agrees.
the same Greek word is used in both occurrences of the word “God” in John 1:1. This same word is used in many contexts, whether it refers to the Only True God or whether it is referring to a false god – such as a man-made god (1 Cor. 8:5) or Satan as the ‘god of this age’ (2 Cor. 4:4). The apparent differences in spelling between the word ‘God’ in the phrase ‘and the Word was God’ (‘theos’) and in other places, (even in the previous phrase, ‘and the Word was with God’ (‘theon’)) is due to inflection in the Greek language. Each Greek noun normally has 8 or 9 forms (cases & number) in which it can appear. (See my page on ‘Inflection’ and ‘Cases’ on the Web site). In the first instance in John 1:1 it is the object of preposition and thus is in the accusative case. In the phrase in question, it is in the nominative case (indicating the subject or predicate nominative – equal to the subject). But it is the same word for ‘God’, and in both phrases here indicates the One and Only True God. So the apparent difference is spelling is not because ‘theos’ is a different word than ‘theon’, but is a different form of the identical word.
“You would have to show me the scriptures that Jesus (means “Jehovah Is Salvation”) is Jehovah.”
The name Jesus came in was “Jehovah is salvation.” (preferably Yahweh but for the sake of this article I’ll keep it as Jehovah. In the NT. we find Paul quoting Joel 2:32 and applying it to Jesus in Rom.10:9-13: “for whoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be saved. ” is there a conflict? No! Paul applies this Lord to the person of Christ. Jews always called on God to be saved and delivered. Paul as a Jew called Christ Lord not only as a theologian but as a worshipper of God. By this he meant him as GOD.
“Even the Catholics got this one right. They call Jesus “Son of God, begotten of the Father” in their creed. Like mom “begat” me.”
Psa. 2:7; Jn. 3:16; etc. state that Jesus was “begotten.” Does this mean that Jesus had a beginning as we did, since we were begotten by our fathers and at that point we had our beginning? The answer to Psa. 2:7 is found in Acts 13:30-33. There we learn that this verse from Psalms refers to the resurrection of Christ! Secondly, the word translated “only begotten” in Jn. 3:16,18 and 1 Jn. 4:9 in regards to Christ is also used in Heb. 11:17 in regards to Isaac. Was Isaac the FIRST child of Abraham? No! See Gen. 16:15,16. Was Isaac the ONLY child of Abraham? No! See Gen. 16:15,16; 25:1,2. Was Isaac the UNIQUE ONE-OF-A-KIND son of Abraham? Yes! This is how this same Greek word is used in reference to Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is the UNIQUE ONE-OF-A-KIND Son to the Father, but NOT created. Micah 5:2 refers to Jesus the SAME WAY Psa. 93:2 refers to God. Jesus is “from everlasting” and therefore can’t be part of creation. Since He isn’t part of creation, then He must be God, since only God is eternal!
“I noticed you pulled my plug for the Watchtower website.”
I just don’t want to be part to promote what I think is wrong. I believe that JW’s taching is unbiblical and therefore wrong. No malice intended here ok!
Have a nice evening!
22 March 2010 at 1:35 am
Do you really understand the word begotten? In Greek it is “monogeneses” and there are two possible words that it derives, the “mono” and “ginomai” which mean only-born and ginomai in Strong’s definition means “to came into being” or “become”. In dictionary saurus beget means to cause, bring about, produce, etc. Now, looking in John 1:18 as state as Jesus as the “only-begotten god”, would it false to say that Jesus was produced by a someone? This would not literally to say that Jesus was born like of a mother and a child but rather to say that Jesus was really created by his Father in it’s own way. Proverbs 8:22 clearly states that Jesus WAS PRODUCED and the beginning of God’s way. verse 27 clearly states that when God made the heavens Jesus was there already. And what makes this Wisdom as Jesus? Well, verse 30 proves it that way. In addition to this Collosians 1:15 which is not quoted by many detractors of the Watchtower and JW, states that Jesus is the FIRSTBORN OF ALL CREATION OR OVER ALL CREATION. Well if “firstborn” doesn’t mean the first that was produced then why it is followed by the word “creation”. It says the firstborn over ALL CREATION i.e. the first one BROUGHT into existence before all creation.He is the very beginning of all creation of God.
22 March 2010 at 1:53 am
I mean from “mono” which means only and “ginomai” which from Strong’s definition means “to came into being” or “become” thus the monegeneses would mean also as “ony-born” and once you were born then of course someone had born-out you. Can anyone say He was born yet no one has born him? Beget means to be the father of a child or to be the cause of something. Thus when you say “only begotten son from a Father” then definitely it is only-born from the Father. The same with Jesus, he is a begotten god therefore someone begets him not just existed from eternity.
14 March 2010 at 11:52 am
My apologies for not reading your “Jesus is Jehovah” page previously, but several scriptures go unexplained.
At Matthew 28:18 Jesus declares: “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth.” His extensive authority, is not self-assumed but divinely bestowed.
In the scripture at 1 Corinthians 15:27 Paul explains the prophecy of Psalms 8:6, ‘For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.’
Soon after Jesus ascension to heaven, “Stephen, filled with the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at God’s right hand. ‘Look! I can see heaven thrown open,’ he said, ‘and the Son of man standing at the right hand of God.’” -Acts 7:55, 56 (The New Jerusalem Bible)
Jesus did not become God after his return to heaven but, rather, was a distinct spiritual being.
15 March 2010 at 8:14 am
A “battle” isn’t why I stopped by. 1 Timothy 2:3-4 says, This is fine and acceptable in the sight of our Savior, God, whose will is that all sorts of men should be saved and come to an accurate knowledge of truth.
Your zeal is admirable, and I’m glad to read that you “hunger for more knowledge.” I too, took the long way to Christianity, but am glad to have found a crowd that remembers the proverb, “But the path of the righteous ones is like the bright light that is getting lighter and lighter until the day is firmly established.” (Pr. 4:18)
I don’t blame you for thinking “JW’s teaching is unbiblical.” There are more apostates, than faithful. I would not have listened, either, if the truth was presented to me, by detractors.
As to “jumping all over the place,” it is entirely to much work for me. We need to have this conversation in smaller bites.
For instance, check wikipedia for John 1:1 under Difficulties. One of the references:
C. H. Dodd says: “If a translation were a matter of substituting words, a possible translation of [QEOS EN hO LOGOS]; would be, “The Word was a god”. As a word-for-word translation it cannot be faulted.”
I hope this helps!
15 March 2010 at 10:46 am
“As to “jumping all over the place,” it is entirely to much work for me. We need to have this conversation in smaller bites.”
Fair enought. But if you really want to dfiscuss anything at all I would stress and push the discussion about the deity of Christ.
“But the path of the righteous ones is like the bright light that is getting lighter and lighter until the day is firmly established.” (Pr. 4:18)
Is the Watchtower truth Established? This remains to be discussed. Yhe only way to find truth is with Jesus (John 14:6) not in any religous organizations.
“For instance, check wikipedia for John 1:1 under Difficulties”
And the Word was God (kai theos en ho logos). By exact and careful language John denied Sabellianism by not saying ho theos en ho logos. That would mean that all of God was expressed in ho logos and the terms would be interchangeable, each having the article. The subject is made plain by the article (ho logos) and the predicate without it (theos) just as in John 4:24 pneuma ho theos can only mean “God is spirit,” not “spirit is God.” So in 1 John 4:16 ho theos agape estin can only mean “God is love,” not “love is God” as a so-called Christian scientist would confusedly say. So in John 1:14 ho Logos sarx egeneto, “the Word became flesh,” not “the flesh became Word.” Luther argues that here John disposes of Arianism also because the Logos was eternally God, fellowship of the Father and Son, what Origen called the Eternal Generation of the Son (each necessary to the other). Thus in the Trinity we see personal fellowship on an equality. – Dr. A. T. Robertson
also
The Word is distinguishable from God and yet Theos en ho logos, the Word was God, of Divine nature; not “a God,” which to a Jewish ear would have been abominable; nor yet identical with all that can be called God, for then the article would have been insert – Expositor’s Greek Testament
Your comment is always welcome!
15 March 2010 at 9:56 pm
As with the word God, the words deity and divine have several meanings:
de·i·ty n., 1. A god or goddess. 2.a. The essential nature or condition of being a god; divinity. b. Deity. God. Used with the.
di·vine adj. 1.a. Having the nature of or being a deity. b. Of, relating to, emanating from, or being the expression of a deity. c. Being in the service or worship of a deity; sacred. 2. Superhuman; godlike. 3.a. Supremely good or beautiful; magnificent. b. Extremely pleasant; delightful. 4. Heavenly; perfect.
Twice you have mentioned the offense to the creator of another god. THE FIRST COMMANDMENT. (Exodus 20:3) Perhaps rather that getting hung up on the classification, we might consider the offense.
Scripturally, what offends God about the way Jehovah’s Witnesses worship him?
Other thing: God hasn’t changed, Pr. 4:18 talks about how an individual (or group) better understands God’s Word and purposes.
16 March 2010 at 12:52 pm
Bible Student,
Let start this discussion from the very beginning if you don’t mind.
I’ll get back to your latest comments but first allow me to ask questions to you (I’m going to be anticipating for your answer),
In Matthew 16:15, Jesus asked, Who do you say I am? Who do you think Jesus is when it comes to his deity? (Now remember keep it short)I’m well aware what the Watchtower teaches but I want to hear the answer from yourself.
Revelation 1:8; “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God , “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty. Who is the Alpha and the Omega?
In Revelation 21:6-7; “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End….and I will be his God.” My question to you is “who is the ‘Beginning and the End, the Alpha and the Omega?”
Revelation 22:12-13; “Behold, I am coming soon!…I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.”
Who is the First and the Last mentioned here?
Now turn back to Revelation 1:17-18; “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last [now who is this First/Last?–Jehovah God!] I am the Living One; I WAS DEAD, AND BEHOLD I AM ALIVE FOR EVER AND EVER!.
On the behalf of the interpretation of John 1:1,
Do prominent scholars, either secular or religious, support the Watchtower interpretations of Scripture?
Have a good day!
17 March 2010 at 12:25 am
Jesus is not the Deity. That job is taken. Jehovah God doesn’t make mistakes, he got the best man for the job of co-creator, intercessor and king. He is a spirit creature, who has always remained loyal to his father. Soon (if you stick around) you will see how much more preferred a divine government, under Christ’s leadership is, compared to anything man has tried.
Revelation 1:8, Revelation 21:6-7, Revelation 22:12-13 all refer to Jehovah God.
Revelation 1:17-18 is Jesus Christ.
Sure, prominent scholars, scientists, truck drivers, entertainers, fine musicians, IT professionals, cooks, wranglers, real estate brokers and bankers, support what they have learned at their local Kingdom Hall. In turn, dedicating our lives to God allows him to support our material, emotional, spiritual needs.
If you mean the kind that I’ve cited from the wikipedia article, yes them too. Although
I’m less impressed with an academic degree, since I’ve adopted God’s view.
Paul, a lawyer, was inspired to write at 1 Corinthians 3:18-19, Let no one be seducing himself: If anyone among YOU thinks he is wise in this system of things, let him become a fool, that he may become wise. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God; for it is written: “He catches the wise in their own cunning.”
How do you see Jesus?
17 March 2010 at 1:06 am
Scholars that agree on John 1:1:
Benjamin Wilson
J. M. P. Smith
E. J. Goodspeed,
Siegfried Schulz
Johannes Schneider
Jürgen Becker
Sometimes I just have to keep digging.
18 April 2010 at 6:44 am
_____
@ Bible Student:
You’ve forgotten to include the beloved Johannes Greber, which the Watchtower cites as supplier of the wonderful revelation that Jesus is A god … watchtower, “Aid To Bible Understanding” 1969, page 1669. — photocopy of this article found at:
http://www.sixscreensofthewatchtower.com/3occultorigins2.html
the watchtower threw Greber “under the bus” only after too many people brought to light that he received his ‘revelation’ from dead spirits … necromancy … which is prohibited not just in the OT but by the JW’s!
oooppps. Or did you forget to mention Greber on purpose?
IsChristSoonToReturn.wordpress.com
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17 March 2010 at 5:18 pm
Bible Student,
“Jesus is not the Deity. That job is taken. Jehovah God doesn’t make mistakes, he got the best man for the job of co-creator, intercessor and king.”
Do you have any biblical references to back-up your statement that Jesus is nothing but a demi-god?
If I’m not mistaken, The first paragraph above tells me that Jesus Is NOT Jehovah God, right? Yet when I asked you about Rev.1:17-18; “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last I am the Living One; I WAS DEAD, AND BEHOLD I AM ALIVE FOR EVER AND EVER! and you answered that it is Jesus (and you’re correct!). Isn’t Jesus Jehovah HIMSELF in the context of Rev. 1:17-18 (and else where in the Scripture)
It IS indeed Jesus Christ. Who was Jesus identifying himself as being, when he called himself `the First and the Last’? This is how Almighty God described himself in the Old Testament.
Note, too, that the expression the first and the last is used this way to refer to the Jehovah God in Rev. 22:13: `’I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.
Do you admit that Jesus is Almighty God in Rev.1:7-8? If not (pls read Rev. 1:7-8 in your NWT) then someone is coming who?
(V.7) says it is someone who was `pierced.’ Who was it that was pierced when he was nailed up to die? But in verse 8 says that it is Jehovah God who `is coming.’ Could it be that there are two who are coming?
You asked me about who I think Jesus is and it is only more than fair to give you my answer.
Jesus is: God Yahweh the second person of the trinity (Jn. 1:1;1:3) Creator (Col. 1:16-17,Isaiah 40:28) First and The Last (Rev. 2:8;22:13,Isaiah 44:6;48:12)I AM ‘Ego Eimi'(John 8:24;5:8;13:19 see also Ex 3:14; Isa.43:10)Judge, King, Light, Rock and Savior.
You cited a handful “scholars,” that agrees the NWT interpretation of John 1:1 Pardon my ignorance but do you have any references or scholarly books in Greek biblical studies that these men produced? Are these “scholars,” of yours religious or secular?
You quoted C.H. Dodd earlier but I believe he would have agreed more with me when it comes to Christ deity and the interpretation of John 1:1 than with the Watchtower society.
18 March 2010 at 3:21 am
You argue like my wife, first it’s “keep it short,” then elaborate.
Nowhere and at no time has Jehovah God been Jesus Christ. They are two different persons, with different attributes.
For instance there are only two things that things that God cannot do. Lie (Titus 1:2) and die. So it must be the Christ spoken of at Rev. 1:18.
John sees Jesus Christ coming at Rev.1:7. Jehovah God is recorded as speaking from heaven, three times in this book. At Revelation 1:8; 21:5-8; and 22:12-15.
These Bible translations correctly render John 1:1 as listed. I’m sure the gentlemen listed have written other important tomes.
The Emphatic Diaglott (interlinear reading), by Benjamin Wilson, New York and London. 1864
“and a god was the Word”
The Bible—An American Translation, by J. M. P. Smith and E. J. Goodspeed, Chicago. 1935
“and the Word was divine”
Das Evangelium nach Johannes, by Siegfried Schulz, Göttingen, Germany. 1975
“and a god (or, of a divine kind) was the Word”
Das Evangelium nach Johannes, by Johannes Schneider, Göttingen, Germany. 1978
“and godlike sort was the Logos”
Das Evangelium nach Johannes, by Jürgen Becker, Würzburg, Germany 1979
“and a god was the Logos”
I never met Professor Dodd, so I don’t know how he felt.
You mention Arius in the section above titled A Response to Jehovah’s Witnesses. You correctly label him a heretic the state church didn‘t like the competition. I have learned that the trouble predates Constantine‘s age.
An apostasy among professed Christians was foretold by the apostle Paul at 2 Thessalonians 2:3 and 1Ti 4:1-3 and Peter at 2 Pet 2 1-3.
Jesus clearly taught that Jehovah is “the only true God” and that the human soul is mortal. (John 17:3; Matt. 10:28) Yet, with the death of the apostles and the weakening of the organizational structure, such clear teachings were corrupted as pagan doctrines infiltrated Christianity.
A key factor was the subtle influence of Greek philosophy. Explains The New Encyclopædia Britannica: “From the middle of the 2nd century AD Christians who had some training in Greek philosophy began to feel the need to express their faith in its terms, both for their own intellectual satisfaction and in order to convert educated pagans.” Once philosophically minded persons became Christians, it did not take long for Greek philosophy and “Christianity” to become inseparably linked.
As a result of this union, pagan doctrines such as the Trinity and the immortality of the soul seeped into tainted Christianity. These teachings, however, go back much farther than the Greek philosophers. The Greeks actually acquired them from older cultures, for there is evidence of such teachings in ancient Egyptian and Babylonian religions. As pagan doctrines continued to infiltrate Christianity, other Scriptural teachings were also distorted or abandoned.
God Yahweh of the trinity?
What are the names of the other two?
18 March 2010 at 9:52 am
“You argue like my wife, first it’s “keep it short,” then elaborate.”
I admire your wife for being smart! Now, back to our discussion about Christ deity.
You seem to keep ignoring my question.
#1.Do you admit that Jesus is Almighty God in Rev.1:7-8? If not (pls read Rev. 1:7-8 in your NWT) then someone is coming who?
(V.7) says it is someone who was `pierced.’ Who was it that was pierced when he was nailed up to die? But in verse 8 says that it is Jehovah God who `is coming.’ Could it be that there are two who are coming?
#2.Psa. 2:7; Jn. 3:16; etc. state that Jesus was “begotten.” Does this mean that Jesus had a beginning as we did, since we were begotten by our fathers and at that point we had our beginning?
#3.Jesus is called “the Word”, the Logos, of God. As the Logos, He is the manifestation or expression of God to us, “the image of the invisible God” (Colossians 1:15). “The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of His being” (Hebrews 1:3). He “came from the Father.” As the Logos, Jesus “the Word was with God, and the Word [Jesus] was God.”
also read Isa. 41:4;44:6;48:12 in comparison to Rev. 1:17;2:8;22:13 If these passages isn’t talking about Jesus Christ then who does it refers to?
#4.In addition, how many actual gods are there in scripture? If Jesus is “a god” that was “with God” in the beginning, then is Jesus a true god or a false god?
“Jesus clearly taught that Jehovah is “the only true God” and that the human soul is mortal. (John 17:3; Matt. 10:28)”
In John 17:3,Jesus did not say that the Father alone is the only true God. With respect to the only true God, the Father and Son are mutually inclusive. The Father, along with the Son, is the true God. When Jesus said in John 10:30, “I and my Father are one,” He meant it, literally! If you read 1John 5:20 it reveals that the true God is the Father and the Son.
As for the WT’s interpretation of ‘destroy’ in Matt. 10:28, doesn’t mean a complete annihilation. Rather, it indicates “condemnation” or “doom.” The lost will be sentenced to spend eternity being tormented in the Lake of Fire, reaping their rejection of Christ.
“As a result of this union, pagan doctrines such as the Trinity and the immortality of the soul seeped into tainted Christianity.”
It is true there are pagan “trinities” which date back to Babylon, but rather than this fact supporting the Watchtower contention it actually is an evidence in favor of the Biblical triune God.
According to Alexander Hislop, Israel had spent four hundred years in pagan Egypt, where the triad of Osiris, Isis and Horus held sway, God began their theological education by establishing the unity of God first. Later they would learn of the plurality of Persons within the unity of the one God. To start by revealing plurality within unity would leave an opening for interpretation consistent with the pagan counterfeits.
Now that you have mentioned pagan connection (not that Christianity adapted the notion of trinity from heathens)The Watchtower aren’t 100% pure in their association with pagan. It seems odd, that if JW’S are to have absolutely no association with anything of pagan origin, why they would print on the cover of every Watchtower and Awake magazine, the names of the months of the year. For example,According to The New Encyclopedia Britannica, “January… (is) named for Janus, god of doorways and beginnings.
“March… (is) Martius, named for the god Mars.
“April… The Romans considered the month sacred to the goddess Venus, and its name may derive from that of her Greek equivalent, Aphrodite.
“June… (is) probably named for the goddess Juno” (Vol. 8, p. 292, parenthesis added).
Other months derive their names from equally pagan origins.
“February: named from Februalia, a time period when sacrifices were made to atone for sins. so on and so forth. These are pagan!
“God Yahweh of the trinity? What are the names of the other two?”
God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.
I’ll get back with your statement about Arius and Constantine later. But suffice it for now!
Have a nice day!
18 March 2010 at 12:11 pm
Answers to:
#1
John sees Jesus Christ coming at Rev.1:7. Rev. 1:5 calls him “firstborn from the dead
.”
Then John hears Jehovah God speaking from heaven.
#2
Jesus had a beginning as a spirit being, he was created.
#3
Look again at Isaiah 44:6 Jehovah says, “besides me there is no God.”
Jesus was indeed “the First” human to be resurrected to immortal spirit life. (Colossians 1:18) Moreover, he is “the Last” to be so resurrected by Jehovah personally.
#4 True god. (notice lower case letter “g“)
Mark 12:29 teaches “the only true God” when he quotes De 6:4 Jesus answered: “The first is, ‘Hear, O Israel, Jehovah our God is one Jehovah,
Jesus was called a blasphemer by calling himself the son of God
(Matthew 26:63-65) But Jesus kept silent. So the high priest said to him: “By the living God I put you under oath to tell us whether you are the Christ the Son of God!” Jesus said to him: “You yourself said [it]. Yet I say to YOU men, From henceforth YOU will see the Son of man sitting at the right hand of power and coming on the clouds of heaven.” Then the high priest ripped his outer garments, saying: “He has blasphemed! What further need do we have of witnesses? See! Now YOU have heard the blasphemy.
What an uproar if he had really claimed Godship!
(Romans 6:23) . . . For the wages sin pays is death,…
Not eternal torture!
The religion was corrupted by including the practices. JW’s can’t afford to reinvent language, at this time.
God is a title, not a name. Holy spirit is Jehovah’s active force.
18 March 2010 at 12:18 pm
Sorry, for being impolite. Enjoy the rest of your day!
20 March 2010 at 7:57 pm
Me too is a Bible study student and I know that Jehovah and Jesus are two distinct persons. I would like you Reeves to refer on my blogs concerning about the trinity. The blog is entitled “TRINITY:A FALSE DOCTRINE OF A FALSE CHURCH” AND “THE UNDERLYING TRUTH IN JOHN 1:1” and see for the truth that you cannot deny after reading…see also by your self the other blogs on that site…
If Jesus was really God (the Almighty) then why did Satan offer him the kingdoms of the earth in exchange of worship and bow for him? Well, if I am Jesus and claim to be God the Almighty, would I not tell this Satan “Are you out of your mind Satan? I am your God, your Creator yet you want me to bow and worship you? What the hell are talking about?!” And that’s the big proof that Jesus isn’t Jehovah, the God Almighty
JEHOVAH AS THE ONLY TRUE GOD
What Jehovah said in Isaiah 44:6 is that He is the only God who is above all other gods that is why he is called Almighty God. If there are no gods then he won’t be called Almighty God. For what it would stands for right? It doesn’t mean when Jehovah said he is the only true God and no gods before me means Jesus is a false god. First consider the statement of him He said the “ONLY TRUE GOD” and HE ALSO SAID “BESIDES ME THERE IS NO GOD” Would you think if you would take this literally it will coincides? Of course he won’t be saying as he is the only true God (as it would sounds there are false gods) and yet he is saying “there is no god besides me”. So what he affirm here is that he is alone the REAL GOD and the others are just lower gods and false gods. It should not mean that Jesus is not a false god then he must be the true God. In John 17:3 he said Jehovah is the only true God and he never said he is God but the Son of God. 1 Corinthians 8:5 shows gods in heaven and on earth. Would you say that those gods in heaven and some god’s people are the true Gods? Jehovah said he is the only true God but it doesn’t mean that angels, and other’s God’s people and Jesus are false gods. They are just considered as gods subordinate to the only true God.
ON JOHN 1:1
There is only one way of defining the “the Word was God” and it is in quality not in identity for the last phrase must coincides with the second phrase which is “The Word was with God” and the phrase in verse 2 of John 1 which states “This ONE was in [the] beginning WITH God. Therefore there are two separate persons that are together. And that makes the translators of NWT decide to put it as “a god” and not only “God”. The word “a god” means a quality of being divine or having godlike nature and a being a sort of god from among gods which is true to the identity of Jesus.Please read my other blogs at http://www.fromthesunrising.wordpress.com
Enjoy reading the truth…
20 March 2010 at 10:19 pm
Reeves, thank you for referencing so many scriptures. I found this discussion to be very interesting with the insight of scripture.
Bible Student says… “Revelation 1:17-18 is Jesus Christ.”
1. God Jehovah is clearly the first and the last. If Jesus is created by god and is a subservient, separate being (The archangel Michael) then he can not be the first and the last. That can only be the farther, the Alpha and the Omega which is stated back in verse 7-8 as being Jehovah God.
2. In verse 7-8 not only does it confirm it is Jehovah God but it also says, “and those who pierced him”. Pierced who? Pierced Jesus!
3.(John 20: 25-29) When doubting thomas has to see jesus resurrected and touch his flesh to believe in verse 28 he says “In answer Thomas said to him: “My Lord and my God!” (In the Kingdom Interlinear of the Greek Scriptures it has the definite article in front of Lord “The Lord”, The Jehovah!
A. Thomas worshipped Jesus as Jehovah God.
B. Jesus did not correct him.
C. In Revelation REVELATION 22: 8-9 The archangel Michael told John not to worship him to worship God.
If Jesus is just Michael the archangel then why did Jesus not correct Thomas and tell him, do not do that, worship Jehovah I am just your fellow servant the archangel Michael as in Reveleation?
D. Also with the new testament shinning light on the old testament, in Jude 9 the Archangel Michael would not Rebuke Satan but said “may Jehovah rebuke you” But Jesus had the Authority and Rebuked Satan many times.
Please see these scriptures.
21 March 2010 at 9:13 am
This is my reply to you Neon Bible:
Neon Bible,
Verse 8 shows the word “Almighty” and this fits only to Jehovah God not with Jesus. Verse 7 is really Jesus because he is the one pierced.Some says the verse 8 is Jesus also but it’s not. The proof this is not possible is below. Regarding the accounts of the Bible saying Thomas called Jesus as Lord and God it should be noted the even there is article before the word Lord it wouldn’t not to say that he is Jehovah. It is clear in the Bible that there is one God and one Lord, Jesus Christ not one Lord and God – 1 Corinthians 8:6. Thomas is not saying that he is Jehovah God. What thomas expresses was he believe that Jesus is a god and not the God himself. Thomas also know that there are gods on earth and he consider Jesus as on of the gods. – 1 Corinthians 8:5 In number 3 as to Jesus told John no to worship him, I would definitely agree that he don’t receive worship in fact he said to Satan in Matthew 4:10 to worship ONLY GOD and so the NWT translators did not put the worship to any act that would refer to Jesus as worship but “do obeissance” and not “worship”. Proskuneo was the Greek word used on these verses and it means both worship and obeisance. So does the NWT have the right to say that Jesus is not Jehovah? Of course Jesus would know if Jesus is having receive and obeissance or worship because he mean it when he say it to Satan (after he was baptized) before all people have done obeissance to him on his start of his ministering. About Jude 9 I would say that Jesus as Michael the archangel on that time as Jude taken the accounts from the time of Moses doesn’t violates the authority of Jesus when he rebuked many times Satan and have authority over demons. Matthew 28:18 states that all authority in heaven and on earth has given to him when the time he said it so that is why he can rebuke even Satan. The fact he did not rebuke Satan in Jude on the time of Moses show definitely that he doesn’t receive yet the authority on heaven and on earth.He had received it only when he said he had it already. Actually if you are going to read Proverbs 8:12-32 and Colossians 1:15 you will see that Jesus was really created thus he is not fully God because he has beginning unlike God who existed from eternity – Psalms 90:2 and doesn’t die Habakuk 1:12. In line with these proofs that they are distinct is the account in Genesis 1:26 which definitely address to Jehovah and Jesus when he God said “Let us make…” And this proved strong about Proverbs 8:12-32 and Colossians 1:15 – 17. Some would say again NWT translators inserted the word “other” and this tampered the original thought. Sorry to say it does not. Jehovah is above Jesus. Read 1 Corinthians 15:26-28
21 March 2010 at 1:08 pm
Reeves and Neon Bible,
This verse proves that Jehovah is distint from Jesus. – Psalms 110:2 and Hebrews 1:5 – 13 The verses shows God is speaking to Jesus. What about other translations of verse 8 which says “your throne O God, will last forever”?Would it have difference with the NWT? Well even there is a little bit, getting the context meaning of it does not say they are the same. Jehovah called Jesus Lord(NWT) and God(other versions)so definitely they are two. It cannot be one. Though Jesus is God in other translations it is clearly evident that they are separate and the fact Jehovah call him as God in other versions really indicates that he is a god! Isn’t true Reeves and Neon Bible?
21 March 2010 at 9:12 am
Neon Bible,
Verse 8 shows the word “Almighty” and this fits only to Jehovah God not with Jesus. Verse 7 is really Jesus because he is the one pierced.Some says the verse 8 is Jesus also but it’s not. The proof this is not possible is below. Regarding the accounts of the Bible saying Thomas called Jesus as Lord and God it should be noted the even there is article before the word Lord it wouldn’t not to say that he is Jehovah. It is clear in the Bible that there is one God and one Lord, Jesus Christ not one Lord and God – 1 Corinthians 8:6. Thomas is not saying that he is Jehovah God. What thomas expresses was he believe that Jesus is a god and not the God himself. Thomas also know that there are gods on earth and he consider Jesus as on of the gods. – 1 Corinthians 8:5 In number 3 as to Jesus told John no to worship him, I would definitely agree that he don’t receive worship in fact he said to Satan in Matthew 4:10 to worship ONLY GOD and so the NWT translators did not put the worship to any act that would refer to Jesus as worship but “do obeissance” and not “worship”. Proskuneo was the Greek word used on these verses and it means both worship and obeisance. So does the NWT have the right to say that Jesus is not Jehovah? Of course Jesus would know if Jesus is having receive and obeissance or worship because he mean it when he say it to Satan (after he was baptized) before all people have done obeissance to him on his start of his ministering. About Jude 9 I would say that Jesus as Michael the archangel on that time as Jude taken the accounts from the time of Moses doesn’t violates the authority of Jesus when he rebuked many times Satan and have authority over demons. Matthew 28:18 states that all authority in heaven and on earth has given to him when the time he said it so that is why he can rebuke even Satan. The fact he did not rebuke Satan in Jude on the time of Moses show definitely that he doesn’t receive yet the authority on heaven and on earth.He had received it only when he said he had it already. Actually if you are going to read Proverbs 8:12-32 and Colossians 1:15 you will see that Jesus was really created thus he is not fully God because he has beginning unlike God who existed from eternity – Psalms 90:2 and doesn’t die Habakuk 1:12. In line with these proofs that they are distinct is the account in Genesis 1:26 which definitely address to Jehovah and Jesus when he God said “Let us make…” And this proved strong about Proverbs 8:12-32 and Colossians 1:15 – 17. Some would say again NWT translators inserted the word “other” and this tampered the original thought. Sorry to say it does not. Jehovah is above Jesus. Read 1 Corinthians 15:26-28
21 March 2010 at 10:25 am
Under the heading,
HOW MANY GODS DO YOU THINK THERE ARE?
I found the scripture at John 17:21, 22, where Jesus prayed regarding his followers: “That they may all be one,” and he added, “that they may be one even as we are one.” He used the same Greek word (hen) for “one” in all these instances. The same word used at John 10:30.
Obviously, Jesus’ disciples would not all become part of the Godhead. But they do come to share a oneness of purpose with the Father and the Son, the same sort of oneness that unites God and Christ.
Elsewhere, Isaiah is inspired to call Jesus “mighty God” at Isa. 9:6. Powerful, but not absolutely.
Thanks fromthesunrising!
21 March 2010 at 10:39 am
Adding to what “Bible Student” is saying,
With regard to others being identified as “gods” within the Bible, most Bible Commentaries correctly identify the ones of whom Jesus spoke within John 10:34, 35 (quoted from Psalm 82:6) as being the judges/magistrates of Israel – thus, with even Jesus allowing for others to be designated with the same title given him in John 1:1c, as “a god.”
“The Hebrew for ‘gods’ (‘elōhîm) could refer to various exalted beings besides Yahweh [or, Jehovah], without implying any challenge to monotheism,…”
Taken from: Blomberg, Craig L. (b.?-d.?), Distinguished Professor of the New Testament, Denver Seminary, Colorado. “The Historical Reliability of John’s Gospel: Issues & Commentary.” (Downers Grove, Illinois: InterVarsity Press, c2002), “The feast of Dedication” ([John] 10:22-42), p. 163. BS2615.6.H55 B56 2002 / 2001051563.
Agape, JohnOneOne.
21 March 2010 at 6:37 pm
fromthesunrising,
I could not make any sense of what you are trying to say, with all the bad nonsensical grammar. I appreciate your comments and I will research all the scriptures you noted and try to see exactly what your point was.
Bible Student, are you a JW or one of Russell’s Bible Student?
22 March 2010 at 12:08 am
Let me clarify some of grammar. I was explaining that even Thomas exclaimed that Jesus is God, it should not mean literally as he is the God. What Thomas expressed is that Jesus is a god, a sort of god from among gods and not the Almighty God. In regards to the question why Michael the Archangel who claimed as Jesus by the JW did not rebuke Satan on the time of Moses in Jude 9, this is because I he doesn’t received yet the authority in heaven and on earth. But when he was a man as Jesus he said that all authority has given to him by God – in heaven and on earth. That is why he can rebuke anyone even Satan.In the question of the others why in some accounts Jesus receives worship in his life on earth, I will say that NWT preserved the right translation to “Proskuneo” as “do obeissance” in regards to Jesus. When Jesus was tested by Satan Jesus clearly said that God is the one to be worshipped. – Matthew 4:10 and he meant it because he quoted it from Deuteronomy 10:20 that is why the angel in Revelation 22:8-9 which is Jesus, said not to worship him because Jesus said to worship God alone thus he is being truthful on his words beginning on the time he said it to Satan.
01 May 2010 at 5:06 pm
I found wrong with my comment. Jesus is not the angel in Revelation 22:6-9. The published book of the Watchtower about Revelation says that it is an angel. It should be noted that in Hebrew Scriptures some angels who appeared to some chosen people by God have spoken as like they are God but they are only representatives on behalf of Jehovah. In Matthew 4:10 Jesus clearly said that only Jehovah should be worshiped and no one else. Thus, when people do “proskuneo” on him, I am sure that He had received only obeisance and not worship for if he received worshiped from those people then he is lying to himself, to Satan and to God when he said that worship should be given only to Jehovah.
21 March 2010 at 8:48 pm
Neon Bible, welcome to the discussion about the Deity of Christ! I haven’t read sophisticated comments posted here that destroys/or debunks the arguments for Jesus as Jehovah God so far. I welcome you too fromthesunrising!
Is Jesus God Jehovah? Of course! Is Jesus one of the gods? Nope! Absolutely not! Do Christians worship three gods (God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit)? Again, nope! Christians ONLY worships ONE GOD (Father, Son, Holy Ghost)!
Before I discuss the doctrine of trinity with you guys I would like to ask you first Watchtower followers if you even understand what trinity means or what the doctrine of trinity means.
Bible Student, You said, “Holy spirit is Jehovah’s active force.” what do you mean by “force?” Please be articulate.
22 March 2010 at 1:15 am
Dear Reeves,
Above you said:
“Before I discuss the doctrine of trinity with you guys I would like to ask you first Watchtower followers if you even understand what…the doctrine of trinity means.”
Perhaps what you are unaware of is the fact that, when it comes to the question of whether we “understand what…the doctrine of the trinity means,” such is, in reality, not possible; as this is something that we, as Jehovah’s Christian witnesses, have come to learn, that is, from our regular conversations with those within the “Trinitarian” community, in speaking with them in our door-to-door ministry. (Acts 5:42; 20:20)
Curiously, many a Trinitarian scholar has seen much the same problem, as gleaned from a number of their own comments:
http://goodcompanionbooks.com/Some_Interesting_Observations.htm
Agape, JohnOneOne.
http://www.goodcompanionbooks.com
[P.S. – By the way, I am not a “Watchtower follower,” I am a follower of Jesus Christ, my Lord and Saviour. 1 Tim. 2:5]
21 March 2010 at 11:51 pm
This is a copy-paste comment:
I would be no against of the word of God in Isaiah 43:24 as he created heavens and earth by himself or alone. This is to let the people know that he is the true God alone. If I am the “owner” of a building would I not say also “I build it with myself” or should I say it “I build it with my carpenters, engineers, plumbers, electricians and others”? Why would I address the other people which I only pay when the building belongs to me as my own property? Thus, why would Jehovah emphasize Jesus as his co-creator if he had just made Jesus? And if Jehovah said “We, Jesus and I, made the heavens and earth.” Would you think people will not eager to know who is Jesus and what he is? Definitely this will make a presumption that “another God helped Jehovah in making heavens and earth”. Then consequently they will say “Who is greater than them?” This creates now the thinking of polytheism. But Jehovah clearly state that he is the only God (true God). And you are saying God is the Master Worker who created by himself? Read Proverbs 8:22. How do you understand the words “Jehovah himself created “me” in the beginnings” and verse verse 30 as “I came to be beside ‘him’ ” would it be “I came to be beside myself”? Is it not confusing. How would you give meaning to that verses? With regards to the definite article, it is true that a word without a definite article can be translated as with or without article. But let me ask you is it always possible to interchange the two nouns in the sentence. For example “God is love”. There is article in front of the word “God” in Greek but the word love don’t have. So is it proper to say also that “Love is God”? Definitely not. This is also the same in the words “Dog is an animal” and “a” is an indefinite article since if this is written in Greek therefore there is no article on it. Now, would you say also that “animal is a dog”? Likewise “the Word is God” cannot literally interchange as “God is the Word”. It’s faulty since John 1:b states that “the Word was WITH God” and John 1:2 as “This ONE in the beginning was WITH God. How could you say that God is with himself? Plain grammar yet so close-minded people twist the real context of the word. How about the account on Genesis 1:26 when God said “Let US make man in OUR image”? Is there “us” and “our” a singular meaning?
22 March 2010 at 3:01 am
I’ll be articulate. Jesus did not come to convince the elite Jews to lead the people his way. He earned the reputation of a great teacher by using illustrations and stories that touch the hearts of the young to the elderly, down to this day. If you are after sophisticated arguments, stick with your professors. Sayings of life are available to most everyone these days, in God’s word the Bible.
In the series “Should You Believe in the Trinity?” is the article The Holy Spirit—God’s Active Force
http://www.watchtower.org/e/ti/article_07.htm
If It’s too much trouble to visit the site, stop by your local Kingdom Hall. The folks there will answer any serious question you have.
Adios!
22 March 2010 at 7:30 am
Hebrews 1:3 He is the reflection of [his] glory and the exact representation of his very being, and he sustains all things by the word of his power; and after he had made a purification for our sins he sat down on the right hand of the Majesty in lofty places – NWT
It said after Jesus had a purification for our sins i.e. when he died he was resurrected and sat down ON THE RIGHT HAND OF THE MAJESTY in lofty places. What is majesty? It means Supreme Power or Supreme Authority. Jesus was on the right hand of God he is is not the Supreme Power. Luke 22:69 “But from now on, the Son of Man will be seated at the right hand of the mighty God.” Can you say that he seat at his own right hand?
22 March 2010 at 7:43 am
Ya Revelation 1:17 is Jesus but not Jehovah it cannot be. Habakkuk 1:12 clearly states that Jehovah doesn’t die and John 1:18 says God was not seen by anyone and no one can see him. The conception of the Trinitarians is because Jesus use the word as “the First and the Last” so as with Jehovah then they now use to equate them as one. I would suggest you read Proverbs 8:12-32 and you will see that Jesus is the Wisdom created by Jehovah. Take note of the verse 22 it says that Jesus was produced and the beginning of God’s way. Take a look also on verse 27. When God created heavens Jesus (Wisdom) was present on him and what proves of the Colossians 1:16-17 refer to Jesus? Well verse 30 now proves it.
Do you really understand the word begotten? In Greek it is “monogeneses” and there are two possible words that it derives, the “mono” (means only) and “ginomai” which mean s in Strong’s definition as “to came into being” or “become”. In the saurus dictionary “beget” means to cause, bring about, produce, etc. Now, looking in John 1:18 as stated as Jesus as the “only-begotten god”, would it false to say that Jesus was produced by someone? This would not literally to say that Jesus was born like of a mother and a child but rather to say that Jesus was really created by his Father in it’s own way.
In addition to this Collosians 1:15 which is not quoted by many detractors of the Watchtower and JW, states that Jesus is the FIRSTBORN OF ALL CREATION OR OVER ALL CREATION. Well if “firstborn” doesn’t mean the first that was produced then why it is followed by the word “creation”. It says the firstborn over ALL CREATION i.e. the first one BROUGHT into existence before all creation. He is the very beginning of all creation of God.
The monegeneses would mean also as “only-born” and once you were born then of course someone had born-out of you. Can anyone say He was born yet no one has born him? Beget means to be the father of a child or to be the cause of something. Thus when you say “only begotten son from a Father” then definitely it is only-born from a father. The same with Jesus, he is a begotten god therefore someone begets him not just existed from eternity. Can you say he was begotten by his father then you say he and his father are one?
Have you come to read “My God, My God, why did you abandon me?” (Another proof against Trinity – think of it curiously trinitarians) – Matthew 27:46 Why would Jesus say to God that God had abandoned him? All of his life on earth he addressed his Father. If considering that verses and he said to many people before that he is God, would he not making lies to those early people? Jehovah doesn’t lie – Titus 1:2 If Jesus is really God the Almighty then definitely as to what he is showing to believe by the people then he is lying. He said in John 20:17 “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’ ” Just a sample like this. if he is really showing that he and his Father are one then why he told “my God”? Why is he praying to God if he is fully the God? And why did he said this :”Why are you calling me good, there is no one good except God” – Matthew 10:18 See even himself doesn’t want to call good by the others he said only God is good. And if Jesus is the God-man then why Satan told him “If you are the son of God”… and “I will give you all the kingdoms on earth if you will make a bow and worship on me”? Obviously, you said Jesus is God-man then it must know by Satan that he is the Creator and Almighty God. Would created by his Creator dare to ask him ‘worship me or bow on me and I shall give you all the kingdoms on earth?” So do you think now is Jesus plus the verses in Proverbs 8:12-32 and Psalms 110:2 and Hebrews 1: 5 – 13 The last two verses is speaking to Jesus. Read and understand them clearly. The word “O God”, said by Jehovah to him definitely assures that he is “a god”.. Hope this will make you think my friend… and share it with the others… keep seeking for the truth for the truth will set you free. – John 8:32
22 March 2010 at 7:15 pm
Whoa! Lots of comments and which I cannot keep up with. Jesus is a mighty God and Jehovah the almighty God? God Jehovah and Jesus the lesser god? I don’t know how you guys reconciles your ideas with “For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me (this means mighty also) .”—Isaiah 46:9 Again, two Gods? Sounds more like polytheism to me? This certainly ain’t not monotheism! Back to our discussion.
“Do you really understand the word begotten?”
Does the phrase “only begotten Son” in John 3:16 imply that Jesus was derived from the Father in some way and therefore not eternal? Let us see. According to most credentialed New Testament scholars, the Greek term translated “begotten” in John 3:16 was improperly translated. The correct translation should have been “only Son” or “unique Son.” For example, in the NIV the verse reads:
For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son.
But, of course, if one is willing to read between the line the word “begotten” can mean just about everything to fit our mistaken and twisted theology. Again does John 3:16 imply that Jesus was created? Nah. This passage and others (see. John 1:14,18; 3:18 ; 1 John 4:9 ) that refer to Christ as “begotten” don’t imply that the doctrine of the triune God is wrong, nor do they imply that Christ doesn’t have eternal existence. These passages refer specifically to the INCARNATION, the unique occasion in which God became a human being. While Christ has existed from eternity, the incarnate Son of God came into existence at a specific time in history. Again, the WT Organization will not allow this kind of interpretation.
“John 1:18 says God was not seen by anyone and no one can see him.”
What about John 1:18 and it reads:
“No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is in the bosom with the Father is the one that has explained him.” The Greek word (gegennaka) for “become your father” at Hebrews 1:5 is often translated “begotten.” If “begotten” means that Jesus was “created” (as the Watchtower claims), why does the writer of Hebrews indicate that Jesus is the only “Son of God” who was “begotten”? Doesn’t this prove that “begotten” cannot refer to a so-called creation event, but rather to Jesus’ “uniqueness” as the only “Son of God” by nature and the one who became the “Son of Man” at the incarnation (coming to earth) event that took place in Mary’s womb? James White wrote in his book, “The King James Only Controversy,” p. 259
“It was thought that the term came from monos, meaning ‘only’ and gennao, meaning ‘begotten.’ However, further research has determined that the term is derived not from gennaw but from genos, meaning ‘kind’ or ‘type.’ Hence the better translation, ‘unique’ or ‘one of a kind.’ ” fromthesunrising, you may forget the fact that it was said of Jesus at
Colossians 1:15: “…He is the image of the invisible God….” The reason no man has seen God the Father is because He is “invisible” and “…dwells in unapproachable light; whom no man has seen or can see.”
(1 Timothy 6:16). This is why when Philip asked Jesus “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.” Jesus replied, “Have I been so long with you, and yet have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how do you say, ‘Show us the Father’?” (John 14:8-9)
Since no one can see the Father, Jesus (the only begotten God = one and only unique God) “has explained Him” or made Him manifest. Thus, we see that the Jehovah who appeared to Isaiah is indeed Jesus Himself! In Isaiah 6:1, 5: “In the year that King Uzziah died I, however, got to see Jehovah…. ‘Woe to me!…for my eyes have seen the King, Jehovah of armies, himself!”
“Well if “firstborn” doesn’t mean the first that was produced then why it is followed by the word “creation”. It says the firstborn over ALL CREATION i.e. the first one BROUGHT into existence before all creation. He is the very beginning of all creation of God.”
By the conclusion of your reasoning about “first born” this would make David (also called as first born) the very first son of Jesse (1 Samuel 16:11)! Which he is not! Was illness the first creation (first born) then Job 18:13? If “firstborn” means first-created, why did the apostle Paul use the term prototokos which means “firstborn” or “preeminent one,” rather than the term protoxtioti which means “first-created”? The whole context of Colossians chapter one is speaking about the supremacy of Christ as being the Creator rather than being of the creation. It is in this sense that Christ is called the “firstborn” or preeminent one of creation. Indeed, “…He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; so that he might become the one who is first in all things; because [God] saw good for all fullness to dwell in him.” —Col. 1:18-19 My advice to you guys is to read the whole context (in the Bible) this is a good exercise.
“Actually if you are going to read Proverbs 8:12-32 and Colossians 1:15 you will see that Jesus was really created thus he is not fully God because he has beginning unlike God who existed from eternity – Psalms 90:2 and doesn’t die Habakuk 1:12.”
What about Proverbs 8:12-23 does this text even implies Jesus’ creation? New World Translation translates Proverbs 8:22 as “Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way.…” They use these verses in Proverbs 8 attempting to prove that Jesus was created and thus has not always existed. Although the Society admits that these verses in context are speaking of wisdom personified, they claim that this passage is “actually a figure of speech for Jesus as a spirit creature prior to his human existence.”—Should You Believe in the Trinity?, p. 14
If the “wisdom” in Proverbs 8 is actually referring to Jesus, who is the “prudence”16. that Jesus (as wisdom) dwells with? If wisdom had to be created (was “produced”), are we to conclude that God had no wisdom until a certain time when He created it? It is obvious that God wouldn’t be God if there was a time when He was without wisdom. Therefore, we must recognize that wisdom is just as eternal as God is. In fact, the same Hebrew word translated “everlasting” or “time indefinite” (owlam) which is used to express God’s eternal nature at Psalm 90:2 is used to express the eternal nature of wisdom at Proverbs 8:23. The New American Translation better translates these passages as it states that God “possessed” wisdom, rather than “produced” wisdom. These passages reveal how God brought forth wisdom to take part in His creation.
Read Proverbs 1:20-21, for instance, wisdom is personified as a woman who cries in the streets. As is seen by examining the context, there is no indication in this passage that the wisdom which is being discussed in Proverbs 1-9 is to be associated with Christ. Nevertheless, even if one takes the position that the Watchtower Society maintains (that this wisdom is referring to Christ), one would have to come to the conclusion that Jesus is just as eternal as God is, since it is obvious that wisdom could not have been created. Proverbs 8:22-23 cannot be used to prove that Jesus is a created being. In fact, quite the opposite is true, for by utilizing the Society’s position, one can argue for the eternal nature of Christ from these passages!
“Habakkuk 1:12 clearly states that Jehovah doesn’t die…”
What about Habakkuk 1:12? Do we have a problem here? In NWT IT READS:
“…Are you not from long ago, O Jehovah? O my God, my Holy One, you do not die.”
If one studied theology one will recognize one of God’s immutability in which God cannot die. But does the verse support JW’s arguments against Christ’s deity as Jehovah? Hardly! In this passage, Jehovah God is called “the Holy One” who does not die. Yet, at Acts 2:27, 3:14, and John 6:69 we read that this “Holy One” is Jesus who, as foretold by David at Psalm 16:10, was to die but whose body would not “undergo decay.” How can this be? If the Holy One does not die, how can Jesus as the “Holy One” die? We can reconcile this by recognizing that according to Psalm 49:7, more was required than just a mere man to atone for the sins of mankind. 6. Thus, it was necessary for Jehovah God to become man in the person of Christ in order to die and atone for the sins of the world. Although Jesus (in His human nature) had completely died, He (in His Divine nature) still possessed the power to raise Himself.
“…I lay down My life that I may take it again. No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again.…Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”—John 10:17-18; 2:19
“He said in John 20:17 “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’ ” Just a sample like this. if he is really showing that he and his Father are one then why he told “my God”? Why is he praying to God if he is fully the God? And why did he said this :”Why are you calling me good, there is no one good except God” – Matthew 10:18 See even himself doesn’t want to call good by the others he said only God is good.”
Please read Exodus 4:16 (NW), where it says that Moses “will serve as God to” his brother Aaron. Moses’ serving as God to Aaron did not change the fact that Moses and Aaron were equals in their humanity. Similarly, the Father and the Son can be equals as to their Deity, with the Father serving as Head or God to the Son. And look at Hebrews 1:10 where the Father calls the Son “Lord.” If the Father can call the Son “Lord” without losing the status of being Lord himself, the Son can call the Father “God” without losing the status of being God himself.
Is Jesus Michael Archangel? fromthesunrising, would please give me references in the Scripture where it says Jesus was/is Arch-angel Michael?
22 March 2010 at 6:12 pm
It was said above:
“Before I discuss the doctrine of trinity with you guys I would like to ask you first Watchtower followers if you even understand what…the doctrine of trinity means.”
Perhaps what you are unaware of is the fact that, when it comes to the question of whether we “understand what…the doctrine of the trinity means,” such is, in reality, not possible; as this is something that we, as Jehovah’s Christian witnesses, have come to learn, that is, from our regular conversations with those within the “Trinitarian” community, in speaking with them in our door-to-door ministry. (Acts 5:42; 20:20)
Curiously, many a Trinitarian scholar has seen much the same problem, as gleaned from a number of their own comments:
http://goodcompanionbooks.com/Some_Interesting_Observations.htm
Agape, JohnOneOne.
http://www.goodcompanionbooks.com
[P.S. – By the way, I am not a “Watchtower follower,” I am a follower of Jesus Christ, my Lord and Saviour. 1 Tim. 2:5]
22 March 2010 at 9:44 pm
fromthesunrising, please allow me.
Back to the dictionary. Using the prefix arch- points to the prominent one.
arch- pref. 1. Chief; highest; most important. 2. Extreme or most characteristic of its kind.
(1 Thessalonians 4:16) because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first.
(Daniel 12:1) “And during that time Michael will stand up, the great prince who is standing in behalf of the sons of your people.
I hope this helps.
23 March 2010 at 2:31 am
I heard an excellent illustration at my meeting this evening. How those that teach the trinity doctrine actually degrade Jesus.
Imagine some workers make a request of their supervisor, but he says that he does not have the authority to grant it. If his statement is true, the supervisor has wisely displayed an awareness of his limitations. If it is not true, if he can grant the request but simply chooses not to, he has been deceptive.
How did Jesus respond when two of his apostles desired positions of prominence? He told them: “This sitting down at my right hand and at my left is not mine to give, but it belongs to those for whom it has been prepared by my Father” (Matthew 20:23) If Jesus were really God, would that not have been a lie? Instead, by deferring to the One with greater authority Jesus set an example in modesty and showed that he was not equal to God.
23 March 2010 at 5:14 am
Reeves,
Okay you keep on trying to say that Jesus is Jehovah but you forget to quote and explain the verses that I have sent you. Of course a lot of commentators that support the Trinity would definitely makes way to to prove that idea. And I was kinda amazed that even in the Proverbs you have your own explanation. Pretty good for the the believers of your faith and those who are doubts on their faith.They might absorbed your teachings. However, I would stay on the truth. All of the explanations you said “may” sounds true on the verses you have said but can we ponder with some other verses that points the distinction of God and Jesus as separate persons?First, verse 8 who is Wisdom (Jesus as claimed by the Watchtower) resides with “SHREWDNESS”. Would it not sounds redundant when we speak of wisdom as an attribute only of God and resides with shrewdness? We know that to have wisdom is to have shrewdness. Thus this Wisdom is someone who have shrewdness. You said in your own version well some of the versions of verse 12 which of this you cannot accept as Jesus is because the Wisdom dwells “together” with prudence and for that you take it also the prudence as person if taking the Wisdom as person. I don’t see clarity of the other versions. while in NWT it rather states as 12 “I, wisdom, I have resided with shrewdness and I find even the knowledge of thinking abilities.” thus making clear that the Wisdom as a person possess shrewdness. So if you will take the Wisdom as literal then Shrewdness or Prudence should be taken also as literal. Is not prudence a part of wisdom. Wisdom is understanding or knowledge and once you are prudence of course you have wisdom. So come you say that Wisdom is a nature only or attribute of God that dwells together with Prudence. The four major attributes of God are Love, Power, Judgment and Wisdom and prudence can be found in Wisdom. And you are correct how can God create a Wisdom as only an attribute or nature of him separated from him when in fact He Jehovah possessed wisdom from eternity? Good point for that thanks. So definitely we cannot say that this is a literal Wisdom of God but a figure of speech that refer to Jesus. Second, you said that verse 22 is much correct to say as “possessed” rather than “brought” so that the Wisdom is possessed by God as his nature at the beginning of his works. Again this gives way the other translations to fits their ideas. However, looking in verse 23 it was said the Wisdom is “established”; “set up”; “fashioned” “appointed” and when we are going to look up the meaning of all of these words it will end up in saying “prepared”,”put up”, “produced” or “formed”. So how can this be the eternal nature of God when in fact it was said that it was formed or created. We know that Wisdom of God is not created nor produced. It was in him already when he existed from eternity. If someone would argue again that he created his Wisdom then, what did he use in creating his wisdom? Is it not a wisdom that would know the knowledge of all the wisdom? Of course this is not possible. A wisdom cannot create a similar wisdom but it can give birth of some attributes that belongs to wisdom such as shrewdness or prudence. And this verse 33 “Listen to discipline and become wise, and do not show any neglect. 34 Happy is the man that is listening to me by keeping awake at my doors day by day, by watching at the posts of my entrances.” Is it not the person Jesus that we should listen to and do his will and his will is to do the will of his Father? And it says those people are happy when watching at the post of his entrances? Matthew 24:33 shows this verse. What about the last two verses, 35 “For the one finding me will certainly find life, and gets goodwill from Jehovah. 36 But the one missing me is doing violence to his soul; all those intensely hating me are the ones that do love death.”
Do you think wisdom can save us? Even if you have wisdom but you don’t have love you cannot have salvation. Of course you cannot say if you have wisdom you have love. Thus in the Bible is clearly stated that God is love and love means obeying the commands of God – 1John 5:3. This is to say you are knowledgeable in the Scriptures of Jehovah which the Jehovah’s Witnesses presents in to people yet you don’t obey the commandments of God then it’s worthless.
Third, you said “It was thought that the term came from monos, meaning ‘only’ and gennao, meaning ‘begotten.’ However, further research has determined that the term is derived not from gennaw but from genos, meaning ‘kind’ or ‘type.’ Hence the better translation, ‘unique’ or ‘one of a kind.’”
But even it is said as “only son” or “unique son” still the presence of the two persons on that time are notable.
18 No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is in the bosom [position] with the Father is the one that has explained him. – NWT
18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only [Son], who is himself God and [a] is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known. – TNIV
The verse in TNIV is really far from many translations of the Bible. Consider this verse:
18No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only,[a][b]who is at the Father’s side, has made him known. – NIV
Although we can see that the one and only is God, this would seem confusing if we are are going to take the context of the next phrase. In this verse, the translator is saying that the one and only God is at the Father’ side. Thus this one and only (supposed to be son) is someone who is at the Father’s side. We could see now how the translations are twisting the real thoughts of the word of God. The Greek word that is used here for bosom (position or place) is kolpon and Kolpon was used also in Luke 16:22 which means also as bosom. Thus the rendering of bosom as to “a closest relationship with a Father” taken as the other side of the son’s identity is not acceptable. We can see from many other Bible translations that none of it says that “bosom” need to define as like what TNIV translated it.
Finally,taking again the truth from the Bible or the word of God you have forgotten to explain some verses that identifies the distinction of God and Jesus. So I would like to quote it again for you to think of.
Have you come to read “My God, My God, why did you abandon me?” (Another proof against Trinity – think of it curiously trinitarians) – Matthew 27:46 Why would Jesus say to God that God had abandoned him? All of his life on earth he addressed his Father. Trinitarians twist this as Jesus is showing example on how to pray to the Father. Then then Paul consider Jesus as mediator of man and God. Mediator means a person who acts in between two parties. If considering that verses and he said to many people before that he is God (supposed to be he admit he is really God), would he not making lies to those early people? Jehovah doesn’t lie – Titus 1:2 If Jesus is really God the Almighty then definitely as to what he is showing to believe by the people then he is lying. He said in John 20:17 “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’ ” Just as simple as that. If he is really showing that he and his Father are one then why then he told “my God”? Why is he praying to God if he is fully the God? And why did he said this :”Why are you calling me good, there is no one good except God” – Matthew 10:18 See even himself doesn’t want to call good by the others he said only God is good. And if Jesus is the God-man then why Satan told him “If you are the son of God”… and “I will give you all the kingdoms on earth if you will make a bow and worship on me”? Obviously, you said Jesus is God-man then it must known by Satan that he is the Creator and Almighty God. Would someone created by his Creator dare to ask him ‘worship me or bow on me and I shall give you all the kingdoms on earth?” This really puzzles me when it comes to Trinity. Why would Satan offer him the kingdoms on earth and let God (as you claimed) to worship him?
Perhaps these verses that you don’t explain will make points for you to think.
1 The LORD says to my lord: [a]
“Sit at my right hand
until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet.”
2 The LORD will extend your mighty scepter from Zion, saying,
“Rule in the midst of your enemies.” – TNIV
And this was quoted by Jesus and was reported in Matthew 22:41-45. Jesus himself was saying as to who he is and to whom came from. David foreseen that Jehovah promised to Jesus to rule against his enemies.
John 15:15 “I no longer call you servants, because servants do not know their master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you.”
If Jesus is also the Father then how come he said that he learned it from his Father. Would this not sound a lie if he claimed himself as Jehovah? It is clear from his words. Another proofs that connect in this verse are John 8:28 and John 14:24. jesus himself told that what he said are not of his own but from the Father who taught him. Again if he claims as he is God would not it means that he is lying to the people whom he were talking with? Put yourselves as to the people who are hearing Jesus words. What would come to your mind after hearing this words of Jesus? Would you think he is really God or he is the son of God?
Another verse Hebrews 1:8-10
8But about the Son he says,
“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever,
and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.
9You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy.”[f] 10He also says,
“In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hand
This is a very clear point that they are separate individuals at the same time. Although NWT render verse 8 as correct i would still accept the other translations. They translated it as “O God…” Oviously, there are two persons in the scenario. The God who is talking with a god. This proves also that Jesus is a god. See? Can he told that words to himself? That is why Trinity is a big lie of Satan!
To Jehovah be the Glory, Amen!
P.S. verse 13 also states the same context in Psalms 110:1-2 and Matthew 22:44
Hope you realize the truth my friend.
Sincerely,
fromthesunrising
23 March 2010 at 5:59 am
This may help you also to realize the truth:
Hebrews 1:3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven”
Romans 8:34 Who then can condemn? No one. Christ Jesus who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. – TNIV
This is clearly a connection proof of Jesus as mediator between man and God – 1 Timothy 2:5
Colossians 3:1 Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is seated at the right hand of God.
1 Peter 3:22 who has gone into heaven and is at God’s right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.
Well if still you are going to stick on the teachings about Trinity, then you have to explain these verses and the one in Psalms 110:1-2 and Hebrews 1:8-10. Would you like to explain it with us in order not to conflict with your beliefs of Trinity?
23 March 2010 at 6:44 am
One thing Proverbs 8:30 “Then I was the craftsman at his side.I was filled with delight day after day,rejoicing always in his presence,”
Taking this as quality of God would seems confusing. This would give a question how come wisdom can create things and be separate from Jehovah. Wisdom is in the mind of Jehovah. How could it be at his side and a master worker and having delight with the Father. This will only show (taking Wisdom as nature of God) is a Person with thinking and feelings. If wisdom can feels and thinks as what he said in this verse then definitely he is a person not a nature of God.Remember he was said as the craftsman therefore he was a creator also and this is true in Colossians 1:16,17. There are numerous Bible versions that translated the Greek word “amon” as craftsman or master worker but sadly TNIV render is as this 30 “Then I was constantly [a] at his side. I was filled with delight day after day,rejoicing always in his presence,”. This rendering favor their insist to cover the real identity of the person that was brought up with him. Let us see KJV versions and study its version.
30 “Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;”
See getting the context of this thing it would still mean the he is THE ONE BROUGHT UP WITH HIM.” Definitely brought means created or produced. That is why the Wisdom (Jesus)was CREATED.
I could name numerous Bible versions that accepted it as craftsman and master worker.
Hope this makes clear to all the readers here…
23 March 2010 at 9:00 am
Hello JohnOneOne,
Why not post the link that discusses about Michael the Archangel… i think it may help also in revealing the truth about identiry of Jesus as the Archangel…
As for me I have a study but on grammar sense… Well if you like to read it just click on the title of my blog “Jesus As Michael the Archangel (A Grammar Outlook) I’m not an English major neither born as English speaking person but I hope this may help to open the eyes of the many.
Read also my other blogs at
http://www.fromthesunrising.wordpress.com
I am not a JW so whatever wrong with my post that is based on my understanding. Of course I do use the proofs of the Watchtower in witnessing but I have made some additional which I think may help the reader to view the truth.
23 March 2010 at 9:52 am
“…I lay down My life that I may take it again. No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again.…Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”—John 10:17-18; 2:19
This verse is clear. Jesus was given authority by his Father to lay down his life and to take up again his life.His authority was from his father. Authority was taken from a Greek word “exousia” which means power to act or authority. This word also means jurisdiction, liberty (freedom), control, right and dominion. Thus considering the authority of Jesus which he received from his Father would definitely mean that he has right to lay down his life and he has right to take up again his life. Would it mean that this right which I think Trinitarians think as “power” (literally) would really mean that he himself even died can regain his life by his own power? No. The right being mention here by Jesus is not his own power to resurrect himself but rather his right or privilege given by God to receive again his life and that is through the power of Jehovah. And this supports the word of God in Acts 2:24, 32; 3:15, 26; 5:30; 10:40; 13:34;
Romans 10:9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Galatians 1:1 Paul, an apostle—sent not with a human commission nor by human authority, but by Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead—
1 Peter 1:21 Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God.
Clearly, Jehovah is identified as the one who raised Jesus from the dead.
23 March 2010 at 10:05 am
Again in order not to contradict those verses in your doctrine of the Trinity, I would like for you to have explanation on those verses. The burden now lies in you. As to the verses you are using to discredit the teachings of the Watchtower well much of it were explained to people. Those verses that I required you to explain are very plain in nature and understandable yet you are insisting of the knowledge of the Trinity which makes you hard to explain even the simple words of God. As to the Watchtower they have insights from God which was prophesied by Daniel that will be seen on the last days.
Daniel 12:10 “Many will be purified, made spotless and refined, but the wicked will continue to be wicked. None of the wicked will understand, but those who are wise will understand.”
24 March 2010 at 4:16 am
To all anti trinitarian who are in discussion with me. It makes me glad for giving me this opportunities to witness to you who are obviously mistaken(biblically) and lost. I pray that this discussion will shed light upon your minds and heart by the Grace AND Mercy of the One and Only true Savior Jesus Christ who is also Jehovah God from the begininng and last. No organizations (Watchtower or otherwise) can save your sinful nature but through Christ Jesus only. My main objective is to affirm biblically the full deity of Jesus Christ, the Son of God. Again, I am not saying that Jesus is the Father (He is not), but that Jesus is fully God (“true man and true God,” as the early Christians declared) and thereby coequal and coeternal with God the Father.
Now, I cannot answer all who objects against the biblical teaching of Christ as LORD AND SAVIOR AND GOD. But I’ll do the best of my time and opportunities I get.
In order for me to properly response to you I need to know your beliefs because it seems to me that I’m not just dealing with a WT follower. fromthesunrising what religious denomination do you belong? Are you Unitarian or Christadelphian? Johnoneone are you Christadelpian or Unitarian?
Is the doctrine of trinity Satan’s lie? Interesting! We all know that the Bible reveal the trinity. Only bias and dishonesty will not be able to see and understand the Scripture. The bible clearly teaches us that there is One God. The Bible also reveals that there are three divine Persons (God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit) and that “these three are one”. Not three Gods, but one God, eternally existent in three Persons — the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. [Matthew 3:16-17;28:19 John 14:16-17, 1 Corinthians 12:4-6, 2 Corinthians 13:14, Ephesians 2:18, Ephesians 4:4-6 (NIV) AND 1 John 5:7, KJV study these verses (never mind the Watchtower the corrupt NWT read and study the Bible from different versions) FOR YOURSELVES AND Think INDEPENDENTLY]
Is Jesus Michael archangel? If I’m not mistaken three of you (johnoneone, biblestudent and fromthesunrising) agrees that Jesus was Michael archangel right?
Bible Student are these verses below a proof that Jesus was archangel Michael? I don’t see how. None of the verses you have attempted to use as prooftexts even comes close to stating that Jesus Christ is Michael the archangel. In fact, Scripture clearly teaches the opposite: namely, that the Son of God is superior to the angels. The entire first chapter of Hebrews is devoted to this theme. For the sake of arguments lets study your proof texts.
“(1 Thessalonians 4:16) because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first.”
The expression “with an archangel’s voice” simply means that the archangel, like God’s trumpet, will herald the coming of the Lord, not that the Lord is an archangel.
“(Daniel 12:1) “And during that time Michael will stand up, the great prince who is standing in behalf of the sons of your people.”
Rather than being merely “one of the foremost princes,” Jesus Christ is “Lord of lords and King of kings” (Rev. 17:14, NWT) and is “far above every government and authority and power and lordship and every name named, not only in this system of things, but also in that to come” (Eph. 1:21, NWT). And, unlike “Michael who did not dare condemn the Devil with insulting words, but said, ‘The Lord rebuke you!'” (Jude 9, Today’s English Version), Jesus Christ displayed His authority over the devil when He freely commanded him, “Go away, Satan!” (Matt. 4:10, NWT) But if you still insists that Jesus is Michael the Archangel then I have a question for you. Col 1:16, in talking about Jesus, says that “… All [other] things have been created through him and FOR HIM”. If Jesus was Michael the Archangel at the time of creation, would an angel have created all things for himself? Isa 43:7 says God created “everyone … for my OWN glory…”.
In addition, according to You Can Live Forever in Paradise on Earth, 1982, p. 21, “Read carefully the following Bible account: ‘War broke out in heaven: Michael [who is the resurrected Jesus Christ] and his angels battled with the dragon'” Yet, Michael, on his own, could not rebuke Satan (Jude 1:9), yet in Mark 9:25 Jesus Himself rebukes Satan. Hebrews 2:5 says an angel can’t rule the world, but Luke 1:32-33 and Revelation 19:16 show Jesus Christ to be the one who will reign. Therefore, Jesus and Michael can’t be one and the same. This makes just another false doctrine from the Watchtower and Tracksociety!
I encourage the reader to examine Hebrews 1, where it is clearly demonstrated that Jesus is not one of the angels: “And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they.” (vv. 3-4 NASB) Notice how the Son is the radiance of the Father’s glory. Is this not consistent with the testimony of John 17:5? “For to which of the angels did He ever say, ‘YOU ARE MY SON, TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU’? And again, ‘I WILL BE A FATHER TO HIM AND HE SHALL BE A SON TO ME’?” (v. 5 NASB) Notice the clear distinction between the Son and the angels.
“Matthew 27:46 Why would Jesus say to God that God had abandoned him?”
When Christ called out to God in this manner, clearly He was consciously quoting this Psalm as an illustration to all that would come after, that He was fulfilling this Old Testament prophecy. This is the key to understanding why the Lord would say this. Jesus Christ, as the living “Word of God” in the flesh, is the application of God’s revealed will concerning the atonement for sin by the wrath of God poured out upon man. And His question in Psalms 22:1 of, “My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me,” is answered in Psalms 22:3.
”Why are you calling me good, there is no one good except God” – Matthew 10:18 Does this passage debunks Christ deity? Not at all!
Earlier in that chapter we are told that this conversation was a part of a scene between Jesus and some Pharisees. The Pharisees were always out to trip Jesus up and on this occasion we are told they were out to ‘test’ him once again (v.1). We are then told that jesus explained the Law to the Pharisees, then, in a house, to his disciples, and then, outside he is tested again, where a rich man calles him ‘good’. Then he utters the words above – why do you call me good as there is only one who is good – God himself! If I was a personal trainer, but someone didn’t believe me but then asked me a fitness question about their health I could ask them – ‘why are you asking me a fitness question – only fitness instructors can answer that sort of question’, as if to say, you deny my PT training but you still want physical fitness help. In the same way, the rich man tests Jesus Christ and calls him ‘good’ but Jesus, by stating that only God is good, is actually saying to the man – you have called me God and yet you deny my divinity. In a way, Jesus Christ trips up the rich man by playing his own game. In a way, here Jesus is actually claiming to be God, not by actually stating as such, but by doing something even more powerful.
“…I lay down My life that I may take it again. No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again.…Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”—John 10:17-18; 2:19 Again does this verse disprove the concept of Jesus100 % God and 100% human? Unlikely!
However, in making such an argument, the WT ignore the fact that this is precisely what Jesus said he would do: raise up his own body from the dead. Even the WT New World Translation has Jesus saying, “I will raise it up,” in reference to his own body. (John 2:19-21) This appears to be an impossibility from the Witness viewpoint, because their organization teaches that Jesus was unconscious and even nonexistent during the interval between his death and resurrection, and hence he depended on the Father to bring him back into existence. Christians, on the other hand, know that Christ’s spirit did not pass out of existence when his body died, so he was able to do as he promised when he said, “I will raise it up.”
See John 10:17-18, Acts 2:24, 1 Corinthians 15:45, and 1 Peter 3:18. Hope this will help clear the confusions.
24 March 2010 at 7:18 am
Reeves,
You said above: “If I was a personal trainer, but someone didn’t believe me but then asked me a fitness question about their health I could ask them – ‘why are you asking me a fitness question – only fitness instructors can answer that sort of question’, as if to say, you deny my PT training but you still want physical fitness help. In the same way, the rich man tests Jesus Christ and calls him ‘good’ but Jesus, by stating that only God is good, is actually saying to the man – you have called me God and yet you deny my divinity.”
The accounts in the Bible tells that the rich man fell down on his knees thus he believes on Jesus as a good teacher. So definitely he agrees with Jesus words and the fact he cried after hearing Jesus words makes him think of the words of Jesus as true. Thus God is good alone was meant by Jesus – Mark 10:18. From your point of view when Jesus died and his Spirit is alive so it makes it resurrect himself, doesn’t it show now that Spirit and Jesus are separate beings? And you quote Acts 2:24 here it is:
24 But God resurrected him by loosing the pangs of death, because it was not possible for him to continue to be held fast by it. 25 For David says respecting him, ‘I had Jehovah constantly before my eyes; because he is at my right hand that I may never be shaken. 26 On this account my heart became cheerful and my tongue rejoiced greatly. Moreover, even my flesh will reside in hope; 27 because you will not leave my soul in Ha´des, neither will you allow your loyal one to see corruption. 28 You have made life’s ways known to me, you will fill me with good cheer with your face.’
Is it not Jesus talking to Jehovah that his own body will not decay?
You quote Matthew 3:16,17 wherein Jehovah speaks about his son Jesus as his chosen one the holy spirit is ascending to Jesus. From these we can see that there two different persons functioning and the holy spirit of God that is poured to Jesus. How come now the Trinity holds that Jesus is fully God equivalent to Jehovah. Is the Father speaking in heaven equivalent to Jesus or should you say that Jesus makes a voice in heaven to represent it by God? The Trinity doctrine is really questionable. in Fact the presence of the three are being seen in the Bible at all the same time. Acts 7:55 But he, being full of holy spirit, gazed into heaven and caught sight of God’s glory and of Jesus standing at God’s right hand, 56 and he said: “Look! I behold the heavens opened up and the Son of man standing at God’s right hand.” See the presence of the three are all in the same time. Therefore, they are separate individuals that are present when man ever lived. And the verse in John 17:5
“And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.” Jesus was indeed in the presence of Jehovah before the world was created. He was with Jehovah. Is it understandable? All in all summing up all the verses that mentions Jesus is with Jehovah makes hard for the trinity to stand out. I was expecting of your explanation of those verses now I add more. All those verses show that they are together in presence. And this wasn’t prove that the trinity is true. You just keep input other verses that adds to your twisting doctrines (excuse me for this) to make possible that the trinity of doctrine was taught to the early Christians. Revelation 7:10 And they keep on crying with a loud voice, saying: “Salvation [we owe] to our God, who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb.” the verse in Revelation is Our God who is sitting on the throne and TO THE LAMB. See two separate persons again.
1 Peter 3:18 For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit,
Thus this means the spirit itself makes him alive. No, Jehovah raised up Jesus through his holy spirit not by the holy spirit itself. I just hope readers would come to think of the truth and not by just simply absorbing the ideas which are not in accord with the Bible. 1 John 4:1 “Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.”
P.S.
I have no much to say.. I have given all what the true teachings of God is… It’s up to you now if you are going to open your eyes and accept the truth. Well to the readers everything should be tested whether the teaching is from the word of God or not. For Satan is the Father of lie – John 8:44
24 March 2010 at 11:58 am
Reeves,
You’re arguing like my wife again.
Daniel 12:1 says “the great prince” but you dispute the phrase “one of the foremost princes,” in your post. But very telling for the sake of this discussion.
Daniel 12:1 is a prophesy, fulfilled in modern times. Notice how the verse continues, “And there will certainly occur a time of distress such as has not been made to occur since there came to be a nation until that time.”
But the phrase “one of the foremost princes” is who helped God’s messenger deliver the comfort, that Daniel begged from Jehovah. (Daniel 10:1-14)
Michael seems to be promoted between these two times.
We might compare two of your other examples.
Although written in the in the first century C.E., Jude refers to an event centuries before, when Satan attempted to gain Moses’ body. Michael, who at the time he was disputing with Satan had not yet had “all the judging” (John 5:22) committed to him, felt that such a judgment should come only from Jehovah God. He humbly deferred to Jehovah rather than trying to seize additional authority.
By the time Paul wrote to the Hebrews, Jesus had proved himself faithful to his father to the point of death. His reward is found at Matthew 28:18, “And Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: ‘All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth.’”
As archangel, Michael had extensive authority. Yet, he humbly deferred to Jehovah rather than trying to seize additional authority.
And back to the dictionary.
Using the prefix arch- points to the prominent angel.
arch- pref. 1. Chief; highest; most important. 2. Extreme or most characteristic of its kind.
angel n. An immortal, spiritual being attendant upon God.
1 John 5:7-8 will have to wait until after work.
By the way, you have put quotation marks on two phrases in your last post. Are they scriptural or secular references?
“true man and true God,”
and “these three are one”
24 March 2010 at 12:45 pm
I have mistakenly said about Acts 2:25 it is David who is talking to Jehovah and seen that the loyal one of Jehovah (Jesus) will not decay on the grave? David believes that Jesus will resurrect by God. Colossians 3:1 “Therefore if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.”
Hebrews 12:2 “fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.”
There are lot of verses saying that Jesus is at the right hand of God. Why can’t the Trinitarians explain these plain verses?
I cannot understand why Trinitarians keeps on saying that Jehovah incarnate as human being Jesus when in fact Hebrews 1:8-10 shows Jehovah is speaking to Jesus the same also relation in Matthew 22:41 – 45 which was quoted by Jesus in Psalms 110:1-2. And to repeat again what about Genesis 1:26 26Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” and Proverbs 8:12-32. I just quoted it again perhaps some readers would accept the truth.
You said above: In addition, according to You Can Live Forever in Paradise on Earth, 1982, p. 21, “Read carefully the following Bible account: ‘War broke out in heaven: Michael [who is the resurrected Jesus Christ] and his angels battled with the dragon’” Yet, Michael, on his own, could not rebuke Satan (Jude 1:9), yet in Mark 9:25 Jesus Himself rebukes Satan. Hebrews 2:5 says an angel can’t rule the world, but Luke 1:32-33 and Revelation 19:16 show Jesus Christ to be the one who will reign. Therefore, Jesus and Michael can’t be one and the same. This makes just another false doctrine from the Watchtower and Tracksociety!
Haven’t your read our comment before that Jesus haven’t received yet the authority during the time of Moses. Thus Michael(Jesus) did not rebuke Satan. But when He came as man on earth he has given authority now by God in heaven and on earth. – Matthew 28:18
You said also: “(1 Thessalonians 4:16) because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first.”
The expression “with an archangel’s voice” simply means that the archangel, like God’s trumpet, will herald the coming of the Lord, not that the Lord is an archangel.”
How come you said this as another person when in fact in John 1:1b and John 1:2 you do not accept the word “with” is something who is present with someone? How is it now that you accept now “with” as someone who is present with someone?
And I would like to quote again the words of Bible Student in here:
“Although written in the in the first century C.E., Jude refers to an event centuries before, when Satan attempted to gain Moses’ body. Michael, who at the time he was disputing with Satan had not yet had “all the judging” (John 5:22) committed to him, felt that such a judgment should come only from Jehovah God. He humbly deferred to Jehovah rather than trying to seize additional authority.
By the time Paul wrote to the Hebrews, Jesus had proved himself faithful to his father to the point of death. His reward is found at Matthew 28:18, “And Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: ‘All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth.’”
As archangel, Michael had extensive authority. Yet, he humbly deferred to Jehovah rather than trying to seize additional authority.”
In Thessalonians 4:16 I would like to ask you how is it possible to have an archangel that will call Jesus before it descends. Is it possible to happen first the call of the archangel before Jesus makes his commanding call.
“(1 Thessalonians 4:16) because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first.”
I guess the only possible way to say that there is really an archangel calling out is in this way:
“because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with the voice of the archangel, with a commanding call and with God’s trumpet…”
However, the original text could only mean as having an attribute of an archangel’s voice and not a voice of an archangel. To understand clearly the thoughts of this let us have example:
“The President went out with a commanding order, with a shout/voice of a god and with musical background.”
It is plain to understand that as the president went out with a commanding order there is a shout of call of a god with musical background. This happens all at the same time and not a shout of a god followed by the president’s commanding order.
Is it really possible to say that in Thessalonians 4:16 a voice of an archangel would come first before the commanding call of Jesus? I don’t think this is possible. The only way should it mean like that is the proper position of the archangel and the commanding call. Like what I said it should be written as “because Jesus will descends from heaven with a voice of an archangel, with a commanding call and with God’s trumpet…” This really means two different persons. However, this doesn’t show by the original Greek in the New Testament… Is there any major in English there that could clarify this verse on how it should it mean?
24 March 2010 at 2:30 pm
I should rephrase my statement “The President went out with a commanding order, with a voice of a god and with musical background.”
Does this not mean that the President went out with a commanding order and that his commanding order portray of having a voice of a god and accompanied with musical background?
Or would it mean that as the President went out with a commanding order there is also a voice of a god which is present and accompanies with musical background? This is invalid on part of Jesus because his call is the one that makes the dead resurrect. – John 5:25,28,29; 1 Corinthians 15:21
John 5:25 Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live.
“Because Jesus would descends from heaven with a commanding call, with the voice of an archangel and with a God’s trumpet”
I don’t see this as the voice of an archangel would come first then followed by the command of Jesus for the dead but rather as Jesus descends with a commanding call there is a voice of an archangel and accompanies with God’s trumpet.
Thus, I guess as to what I know in English grammar rule that the second phrase of Thessalonians 4:16 is a quality or nature of the voice of Jesus described as an archangel. Like in this example:
The Queen went out with a commanding order, with a voice of a man and with musical background.
Consequently, the sentence,
“The Queen went out with a commanding order, with the voice of a man and with musical background.” should mean as, as the Queen went out with a commanding order there is a voice of a man accompanies with musical background.
24 March 2010 at 4:20 pm
Daniel 10:13 But the prince of the Persian kingdom resisted me twenty-one days. Then Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, because I was detained there with the king of Persia.
In Daniel 8:25 the King mention will be stand against the Prince of the Princes and this Prince refer to Jehovah. Thus Jesus and Jehovah are chief princes of other princes. And this is true with Jehovah, Jesus and Michael because many times in the Hebrew Scriptures Jehovah was called as “Jehovah of armies” and Jesus is referred to have “his angels” -2Thessalonians 1:7; Matthew 13:41; 16:27; 24;31; 1 Peter 3:22 while Michael is said to have his angels also. – Revelation 12:7 Since Jehovah’s angels are all under with Jesus authority then these are his angels also. And since no angels could be proper to have “as his angels”, then definitely Michael could be rightly referred to Jesus.
Daniel 12:1 “And during that time Mi´cha·el will stand up, the great prince who is standing in behalf of the sons of your people. And there will certainly occur a time of distress such as has not been made to occur since there came to be a nation until that time. And during that time your people will escape, every one who is found written down in the book. 2 And there will be many of those asleep in the ground of dust who will wake up, these to indefinitely lasting life and those to reproaches [and] to indefinitely lasting abhorrence.”
What is this time? This is on the last days. And within this period of time Michael will stand (meaning will take action) and who is standing on behalf of the sons of your people. Since this are sons of the people of Daniel then this could mean as these are God’s people. What is this standing? If you will notice the event that will happen. There will be a time of distress that never happened before ever since and this is the prophecy of Jesus as the Great Tribulation that is about to happen before Armaggeddon. It was prophesied by Jesus that if the days are not shorten no one will survive.
Mark 13:19 for those days will be [days of] a tribulation such as has not occurred from [the] beginning of the creation which God created until that time, and will not occur again. 20 In fact, unless Jehovah had cut short the days, no flesh would be saved. But on account of the chosen ones whom he has chosen he has cut short the days.
Thus, when this distress came upon on earth Michael will take action. As also Jesus will be seen coming in the clouds and thus Jesus or Michael will save his God’s people. You can see the similarity and connection of Daniel 12:1-2 and Mark 13:19 – 26. There would be no one that would fit to take action in Daniel 12:1-2. It only fits to Jesus.
24 March 2010 at 7:29 pm
Hebrews 1;3 He is the reflection of [his] glory and the exact representation of his very being, and he sustains all things by the word of his power; and after he had made a purification for our sins he sat down on the right hand of the Majesty in lofty places. 4 So he has become better than the angels, to the extent that he has inherited a name more excellent than theirs.
5 For example, to which one of the angels did he ever say: “You are my son; I, today, I have become your father”? And again: “I myself shall become his father, and he himself will become my son”?
Trinitarians are using this as to say that Jesus is not a kind of angel because it says “to which one of the angels you said you are my son?” Now let us have an illustration. If you have students in a class that belongs to section 1 and a teacher ask you “to which one of the students you give the first honor?” Or should he say “to which one of the students you said you are number one?” Would it not mean that the student who is number one is not a student? Thus your saying and using that verse to point out that Jesus is not an angel or not a kind of angel is not a valid proof to say that he is not. Let us rephrase the statement for example. “To which one of the family you said you are my friend?” Would it mean that the friend you you said do not belong to that family? Of course he/she would still belong to that family but he/she is the only one you said as “my friend”. Or in this “To which of one of your sons you said ‘you are my only son’ and ‘I will be your father.’?” Would it mean that the other sons are not sons anymore. To be specific all are his sons but there is only from among them that he calls ‘my only son’ And this is true in the Bible. All angels are sons of God. But Jesus was called by Jehovah as his only son likewise he said to him ‘you will be my son and I will be your Father’ and that is because of their intimate relationship. And it proves to be in the account of Proverbs 8:12-32 and John 17:5
I hope from this time it will make you realize the truth my friend…
To all Trinitarians, I guess this will help you also to think of TRUTH.The real thought of Jehovah God.
Peace and truth be with all!
24 March 2010 at 9:36 pm
Reeves,
You said above:
“This appears to be an impossibility from the Witness viewpoint, because their organization teaches that Jesus was unconscious and even nonexistent during the interval between his death and resurrection, and hence he depended on the Father to bring him back into existence. Christians, on the other hand, know that Christ’s spirit did not pass out of existence when his body died, so he was able to do as he promised when he said, “I will raise it up.” ”
But look this verse on what Jesus said before he died: Luke 23:46 46And Jesus, crying out with a loud voice, said, “Father, INTO YOUR HANDS I COMMIT MY SPIRIT.” Having said this, He breathed His last. – NASB This means that his spirit was in the hands of God. It is God who gives back the spirit of Jesus.
“the spirit itself returns to the true God who gave it.” (Ecclesiastes 12:7)
You said: “But if you still insists that Jesus is Michael the Archangel then I have a question for you. Col 1:16, in talking about Jesus, says that “… All [other] things have been created through him and FOR HIM”. If Jesus was Michael the Archangel at the time of creation, would an angel have created all things for himself? Isa 43:7 says God created “everyone … for my OWN glory…” ”
Let us first define the word “through”. In the dictionary this means as ‘via, out of, by way of, by means of’ Thus the verse would mean that everything was made by means of Jesus. And when we say “by means” it means “it has been possible to happen” because of something or someone you use. Everything was created by means of Jesus. Jesus was the INSTRUMENT in doing everything. Let us have again a real life illustration to further see the logic of the said verse. “I have a plan and I want to make a building but I don’t have enough money to support my plan. Then I will find someone to support my plan. And when the time it was finished, one businessman ask me. ‘How did you built this?’Would I say I built it through me. Or should I say I built it through my investor. If really the owner of that plan made it by himself then he must said to the person who asked this one ‘I built it by my own’. Now you will ask again the one in Isaiah when Jehovah said he created heavens and earth by himself. In that case what Jehovah claimed is that he created alone everything by his own power. Is Jesus’ power not from him. What makes Jesus created everything. Is it not Jehovah who give power to Jesus to help him in creating everything? That is why Jehovah can claim even to himself THAT HE CREATED HEAVENS AND EARTH by himself.Obviously, Jesus was only a product of his power and the power of Jesus was given by him…
THANK YOU JEHOVAH… YOU ARE SO GREAT THINKER… Your words are deep but in all things you said there is always smoothness in all your thoughts…
I hope this illustration will be use also by the Jehovah’s Witnesses….
Spread the truth to all…
Be blessed by the truth people!!!
26 March 2010 at 5:38 am
If Jesus is his name before when he was in heaven then why God told to David in his dreams that Jesus will be the name of Jesus because he will save his nation from all their sins? That is why Jesus means by the scholars as “Salvation of God” or “Help of God”. In Jehovah’s Witnesses Jesus’ name means “Jehovah is Salvation”. Although there is no literal rendering of the meaning of Jesus’ name in the Bible, there is still connection on why he will be called Jesus and that is he is going to saved God’s people on his coming – Matthew 1:21. His name Emmanuel which means “God [is] with us” doesn’t mean that Jesus is really God in fact “God is with us” was used also in Isaiah 8:10 in relation also with Deuteronomy 20:1. Thus Jesus was named only when he was coming to earth not when he was on heaven. If Jesus is his name before then it would mean from Matthew 1:21 that before Jehovah created earth and the original couple (Adam and Eve) he knows already that they will rebelled against him. This is not possible since Jehovah created them and his original aim i.e. to let them multiply and and have authority on earth as well as their children to come. – Genesis 1:28 – 30. It just happen that Satan the Devil rebelled against the will of God and to God and that is why the sin was birth.
26 March 2010 at 9:06 am
Sorry it’s Joseph, husband of Mary whom God talked to in a dream about the coming son of Mary, none other than Jesus.
26 March 2010 at 12:43 pm
Jesus is not fully God. He is not omniscient. He doesn’t know the hour of end. – Matthew 24:36; Mark 13:32; Mark 5:9,10
Look at this verse also John 6:44 No man can come to me unless the Father, who sent me, draws him; and I will resurrect him in the last day.
People cannot come to Jesus unless Jehovah draws them to him. This show that Jesus doesn’t have his own will to draw the people to him but the will of his Father can draw them to him.
John 8:17 In your own Law it is written that the testimony of two men is valid. 18 I am one who testifies for myself; my other witness is the Father, who sent me.”
Would this make valid if Jesus is also Jehovah God? It is quoted by Jesus that the testimony of two is valid. Is it not valid when in fact the testimony of Jehovah when Jesus was baptized was heard by John and the presence of the holy spirit and of Jesus proves to be that they are all separate?
What about these verses?
John 5:19 Jesus gave them this answer: “I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.
John 6:38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.
Do you think this will become valid if Jesus is Jehovah? If Jesus is Jehovah then why he said he didn’t come down to do his will but of his Father?
John 7:16 Jesus answered, “My teaching is not my own. It comes from him who sent me.”
See he admit literally that his teachings was not from himself but from his Father who sent him. If he is saying he is God then he is lying to the people whom he was talking to.
Luke 4:18 “Jehovah’s spirit is upon me, because he anointed me to declare good news to the poor, he sent me forth to preach a release to the captives and a recovery of sight to the blind, to send the crushed ones away with a release, 19 to preach Jehovah’s acceptable year.”
John 14:26 But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.
John 15:26 When the Counselor comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father, he will testify about me.
This Counselor, the Holy Spirit goes out from the Father and not from Jesus.
“Father, if you wish, remove this cup from me. Nevertheless, let, not my will, but yours take place.” – Luke 22:42
Here Jesus is saying to let the will of his Father be done and not his will.
27 March 2010 at 5:18 pm
John 8:28 Therefore Jesus said: “When once YOU have lifted up the Son of man, then YOU will know that I am [he], and that I do nothing of my own initiative; but just as the Father taught me I speak these things.
John 14:24 He that does not love me does not observe my words; and the word that YOU are hearing is not mine, but belongs to the Father who sent me.
1 Corinthians 15:25 For he MUST rule as king until [God] has put all enemies under his feet. 26 As the last enemy, death is to be brought to nothing. 27 For [God] “subjected all things under his feet.” But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that it is with the exception of the one who subjected all things to him. 28 But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone. – NWT
1 Corinthians 15: 25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.
26The last enemy that will be abolished is death.
27For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET But when He says, “All things are put in subjection,” it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him.
28When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all. – NASB
27 March 2010 at 5:45 pm
NASB and other versions are not clear. They uses the same pronoun “He” making the verses not clear and making the writer on the first verse talks about a single person. We can see verse 27 as to have two persons being talk about. The words “He is excepted who put all things in subjection to him” would mean that there is one who put subjection of all things to another person. If there is only a single person here then the writing must be written in this way: “He is excepted who put all things in subjection to himself.” And now verse 28 proves to have one who will subject himself to the One who put all things in subjection to him.
30 September 2010 at 5:15 am
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